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Author Topic:   Did God say it, or did you say it?
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 91 of 127 (549420)
03-07-2010 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Peg
03-06-2010 7:58 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
hERICtic writes:
In EVERY instance in scripture a number followed by YOM refers to a 24 hour period.
In EVERY instance in scripture, when evening and morning are used, it refers to a 24 hour period.
Peg writes:
ok, so show me a few scriptures where this is the case.
2 Chronicles 13:11
Every morning and evening they present burnt offerings and fragrant incense to the LORD. They set out the bread on the ceremonially clean table and light the lamps on the gold lampstand every evening. We are observing the requirements of the LORD our God. But you have forsaken him.
2 Chronicles 13:10-12 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 13 (Whole Chapter)
2 Chronicles 31:3
The king contributed from his own possessions for the morning and evening burnt offerings and for the burnt offerings on the Sabbaths, New Moons and appointed feasts as written in the Law of the LORD.
2 Chronicles 31:2-4 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 31 (Whole Chapter)
Ezra 3:3
Despite their fear of the peoples around them, they built the altar on its foundation and sacrificed burnt offerings on it to the LORD, both the morning and evening sacrifices.
Ezra 3:2-4 (in Context) Ezra 3 (Whole Chapter)
Esther 2:14
In the evening she would go there and in the morning return to another part of the harem to the care of Shaashgaz, the king's eunuch who was in charge of the concubines. She would not return to the king unless he was pleased with her and summoned her by name.
Esther 2:13-15 (in Context) Esther 2 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 55:17
Evening, morning and noon I cry out in distress, and he hears my voice.
Psalm 55:16-18 (in Context) Psalm 55 (Whole Chapter)
Here are some examples with a number and a day mentioned:
Exodus 16:1
[ Manna and Quail ] The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt.
Exodus 16:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 16 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 40:17
So the tabernacle was set up on the first day of the first month in the second year.
Exodus 40:16-18 (in Context) Exodus 40 (Whole Chapter)
Numbers 1:1
[ The Census ] The LORD spoke to Moses in the Tent of Meeting in the Desert of Sinai on the first day of the second month of the second year after the Israelites came out of Egypt. He said:
Numbers 1:1-3 (in Context) Numbers 1 (Whole Chapter)
Numbers 1:18
and they called the whole community together on the first day of the second month. The people indicated their ancestry by their clans and families, and the men twenty years old or more were listed by name, one by one,
Numbers 1:17-19 (in Context) Numbers 1 (Whole Chapter)
Numbers 7:18
On the second day Nethanel son of Zuar, the leader of Issachar, brought his offering.
Numbers 7:17-19 (in Context) Numbers 7 (Whole Chapter)
Numbers 9:11
They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
Numbers 9:10-12 (in Context) Numbers 9 (Whole Chapter)
Numbers 10:11
[ The Israelites Leave Sinai ] On the twentieth day of the second month of the second year, the cloud lifted from above the tabernacle of the Testimony.
Numbers 10:10-12 (in Context) Numbers 10 (Whole Chapter)
The above scripture I did not pick and choose. They're one after another, chapter by chapter. I just moved my mouse to one, copy and pasted. There are plenty more.
My challenge back to you: Find me an instance in scripture where evening/morning means long periods of time. Find me scripture where a number is given with a day that means long periods of time.
hERICtic writes:
Jesus also stated a day has 12 hours. But obviously, Jesus knew it also included darkness before the next day. 24 hours.
Peg writes:
so Jesus stated that a 'day' has 12 hours, but YOU say that he actually MEANT 24 hours. Right.
Peg, we do the same today. You wake up, you look outside, "Wow, its a nice day". Evening comes, you refer to it as "night". Yet its 24 hours.
Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
So did Jesus mean only three-12 daylight hours? Or are evening hours also involved? Do you think Jesus didnt know a day consists of an evening and morning?
hERICtic writes:
God rested on the seventh day. Do you believe this seventh day was also an epoch? Adam lived past this day, just how old was he then? Or do you think the seventh day is back to a 24 hour period?
Peg writes:
we are still in Gods 7th day.
Even moses words show that the seventh day was still in progress when the wrote genesis
Genesis 2:3 God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, BECAUSE ON IT HE HAS BEEN RESTING from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making.
Which is my point. Either the seventh day is 24 hours, which shows the previous 6 were 24 hours, or god rested on the 7th day which is still going. In either case, his creation stopped on the sixth day.
This contradicts the words of Jesus:
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6).
According to Genesis, man was created on the sixth day of six days. This would be the END of creation. If creation started billions of years ago as per your version of Genesis, and day six is billions of years later....how can that be the beginning of creation???
It makes perfect sense if the author believed the earth was only a few days old.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 7:58 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2010 9:34 AM hERICtic has not replied
 Message 95 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 6:00 PM hERICtic has replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 92 of 127 (549421)
03-07-2010 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Peg
03-06-2010 7:58 PM


Topic Please, Seriously
OP Refresher for all Participants:
How does a teacher of religion know (and they should know because they *are* teaching this as the truth to people) that the non-literal interpretation of creation is actually what God meant and not just what the teacher *thinks* God *meant* to say?
Sure you can cross-reference, and that's what we saw in the 6 Day example in the other thread (cross references to both ancient language and modern science), but how do you know you are cross-referencing the correct material/evidence?
This thread is not to discuss the meaning of the words or how long a day was. Please read the OP questions again and adjust accordingly.
Please get back to the topic or the thread will be closed.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you Purple

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 7:58 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2010 9:35 AM AdminPD has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 93 of 127 (549428)
03-07-2010 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by hERICtic
03-07-2010 6:54 AM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
Hertic writes:
My challenge back to you: Find me an instance in scripture where evening/morning means long periods of time. Find me scripture where a number is given with a day that means long periods of time.
Ok playing Devils Advocate (pun intended), I will take your wager Heritic. I love challenges:
Zecheria 14:7 writes:
7It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttimea day known to the Lord. When evening comes, there will be light.
Hebrew transliteration writes:
vehayah yovm-echad hu yivvada Yahweh loyovm velo-layelah; vehayah le'et-erev yihyeh-ovr.
Litterally translated word-for-word:
will come - day - unique (litterally the cardinal number 'one') - which - is known - to the LORD - neither - day - nor - night - will come - time - evening - will come - will be light
Before you say, "that is referring to one 24-hour day" look at the next verse:
Zecheriah 14:8 writes:
8On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.
as well as the context of the rest of the chapter which clearly indicates this 'yom' is NOT a 24 hour period i.e.
Zecheriah 14:1-2 writes:
1A day of the Lord is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
I seriously doubt all this is supposed to happen in one 24 hour day.
Clearly your "24 hour day ('yom') in conjunction with cardinal numbers" theory falls apart here.
Here is another example:
Hosea 6:1-2 KJV writes:
Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us in the third day 'yom' he will raise us up and we shall live in his sight.
Obviously this is NOT referring to strict 24 hour periods, even though cardinal numbers are used here.
Here is a good reference: Creation Essentials, Creation Non-Essentials
also
Does the Bible Say God Created the Universe in Six 24-Hour Days?
Kind of ironic, an agnostic using the Bible to provide hermeneutical evidence supporting old-earth creationism
BTW, not all unbelievers are Bible illiterate. Many of us have had both formal and self-education in Biblical studies.
Take care.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by hERICtic, posted 03-07-2010 6:54 AM hERICtic has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 94 of 127 (549430)
03-07-2010 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by AdminPD
03-07-2010 8:59 AM


Re: Topic Please, Seriously
Sorry I replied before reading your Admin warning.
Edited by AdminPD, : Understood

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by AdminPD, posted 03-07-2010 8:59 AM AdminPD has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 95 of 127 (549449)
03-07-2010 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by hERICtic
03-07-2010 6:54 AM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
hERICtic writes:
2 Chronicles 13:11
Every morning and evening they present burnt offerings and fragrant incense to the LORD. They set out the bread on the ceremonially clean table and light the lamps on the gold lampstand every evening. We are observing the requirements of the LORD our God. But you have forsaken him.
and where is the word Yom in this verse? Also, if the offering is being made in the morning and again in the evening, this is within a 12 hour period.
with regard to trying to use any of the verses about morning and evening to prove that in genesis a day is only 24 hours is rediculous. Genesis is in a completely different context
hERICtic writes:
My challenge back to you: Find me an instance in scripture where evening/morning means long periods of time. Find me scripture where a number is given with a day that means long periods of time.
I have already done this many times. In msg 18 i listed 4 of them.
Msg 18 writes:
Isaiah 1:1 "The vision of Isaiah the son of A′moz that he visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the DAYS (YOM) of Uz‧zi′ah, Jo′tham, A′haz [and] Hez‧e‧ki′ah, kings of Judah:
these days would amount to many more then 24hours because it is the whole lifetime of these people mentioned
Genesis 2:4: This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the DAY (YOM) that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
here the entire creation of both the universe and the earth are called a day, this shows that Yom can be used for the whole period of time in which an extradorinary event took place
Genesis 1:4 "After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. 5 And God began calling the light DAY (YOM)"
here we see Yom is in reference to the light that is seen in the sky
Numbers 14:34 By the number of the DAYS (YOM) that YOU spied out the land, forty days, a day (YOM) for a year, a day for a year, YOU will answer for YOUR errors forty years"
in this verse we see that a YOM is equal to an entire year
hERICtic writes:
Which is my point. Either the seventh day is 24 hours, which shows the previous 6 were 24 hours, or god rested on the 7th day which is still going. In either case, his creation stopped on the sixth day.
well you completely missed that one, didnt you lol.
If the 7th day was still going when Moses wrote genesis, the day was already over 1000 years long.
If it was also still going when Paul told christians that they had the opportunity to 'enter into Gods Rest' then by the first century the day was now about 4,000 years in length
and if that rest day has not yet come to its end, the day is now over 6,000 years in length.
Here it is again: The 7th day has not yet ended. Do you understand that this shows that the genesis 'days' were of a very long duration???
hERICtic writes:
In either case, his creation stopped on the sixth day.
This contradicts the words of Jesus:
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6).
According to Genesis, man was created on be the END of creation. If creation started billions the sixth day of six days. This wouldof years ago as per your version of Genesis, and day six is billions of years later....how can that be the beginning of creation???
Were Adam and Eve created at the same time? Was their creation simultaneous on the 6th day?
No it wasnt. Adam lived for an unspecified length of time before God created Eve. Adam was placed in the garden alone initially, he was given the task of naming all of the animals that God had created. Could he have named the many thousands, perhaps millions of animals, in one day? I dont think so.
Genesis 2 writes:
7And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. 8Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in E′den, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. ...15And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E′den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.
18And Jehovah God went on to say: It is not good for the man to continue by himself. I am going (future) to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.
19Now Jehovah God was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call it, each living soul, that was its name. 20So the man was calling the names of all the domestic animals and of the flying creatures of the heavens and of every wild beast of the field, but for man there was found no helper as a complement of him. 21Hence Jehovah God had a deep sleep fall upon the man and, while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22And Jehovah God proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man
So the conclusion is that the 6th Yom was a very long period of time, long enough for Adam to live alone i the garden and name all of the animals. He could not have done this in less then 24 hours.
to AdminPD, this point is not off topic as its reasoning is linked to determining how long a day could be.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by hERICtic, posted 03-07-2010 6:54 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by purpledawn, posted 03-08-2010 8:21 AM Peg has replied
 Message 105 by hERICtic, posted 03-09-2010 6:56 AM Peg has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 96 of 127 (549477)
03-08-2010 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Peg
03-07-2010 6:00 PM


Address the Topic
quote:
So the conclusion is that the 6th Yom was a very long period of time, long enough for Adam to live alone i the garden and name all of the animals. He could not have done this in less then 24 hours.
to AdminPD, this point is not off topic as its reasoning is linked to determining how long a day could be.
It doesn't matter how long a day is. The point of the topic questions deal with how do you or teachers know what you are saying is correct or is what God meant?
Message 1
How does a teacher of religion know (and they should know because they *are* teaching this as the truth to people) that the non-literal interpretation of creation is actually what God meant and not just what the teacher *thinks* God *meant* to say?
Sure you can cross-reference, and that's what we saw in the 6 Day example in the other thread (cross references to both ancient language and modern science), but how do you know you are cross-referencing the correct material/evidence?
You're making a conclusion concerning the A&E story, which supposedly originated long before the Priestly writer wrote Genesis 1.
How do you know that what you are saying is what God meant and not just what preachers think it means?
How do you know that what you are saying is what the Priestly writer meant and not just what preachers think it means?
These stories belong to a different culture and dead languages. We have lost the slang, humor, idioms, and the substance of their lives. We're all guessing, IMO.
Edited by purpledawn, : Typo

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 6:00 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-08-2010 8:34 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 98 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 5:45 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 107 by kbertsche, posted 03-09-2010 11:35 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 127 (549480)
03-08-2010 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by purpledawn
03-08-2010 8:21 AM


Re: Address the Topic
How do you know that what you are saying is what God meant and not just what preachers think it means?
How do you know that what you are saying is what the Priestly writer meant and not just what preachers think it means?
These stories belong to a different culture and dead languages. We have lost the slang, humor, idioms, and the substance of their lives. We're all guessing, IMO.
Precisely. There is no way of knowing the authors intent without the author's direct input; and quite frankly, he's dead, whomever that may be. We're all just making educated guesses.
How are we even supposed to know it was written by a guy named Moses? Tradition claims it was written by Moses. It certainly could have been, but we don't really know that. We're taught that.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by purpledawn, posted 03-08-2010 8:21 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 98 of 127 (549547)
03-08-2010 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by purpledawn
03-08-2010 8:21 AM


Re: Address the Topic
Purpledawn writes:
It doesn't matter how long a day is. The point of the topic questions deal with how do you or teachers know what you are saying is correct or is what God meant?
but that was the question wasnt it. How do we know that God meant a very long time with this instance of the word Yom?
and a big part of being sure that you are on the right track is if your conclusion can be corroborated with many different parts of the bible
The story of Adam and Eve is a part of the genesis account and therefore it is still in harmony with the current questions about what a YOM means. If we are not allowed to speak about these things, how else can one determine if the conclusions are coming from God or not?
I believe that the bible does not contradict itself, so if we read that Adam lived for a length of time and had to name all of the animals, reason would tell us that it would have taken him more then a few hours to do this. It likely took him more then a few years to do this.
If it all happened on the 6th day, then it reasonable to conclude that the Yom in this instance spanned a period of time and not merely 24 hours. Thats how we can be sure that a yom is more then 24 hours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by purpledawn, posted 03-08-2010 8:21 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by purpledawn, posted 03-08-2010 7:33 PM Peg has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 99 of 127 (549561)
03-08-2010 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Peg
03-08-2010 5:45 PM


Re: Address the Topic
quote:
but that was the question wasnt it. How do we know that God meant a very long time with this instance of the word Yom?
and a big part of being sure that you are on the right track is if your conclusion can be corroborated with many different parts of the bible
We've seen people manage to corroborate many different views from various parts of the Bible. People are able to use the Bible to corroborate very differing ideas. How do you know that your conclusion is right and not totally out of line?
quote:
The story of Adam and Eve is a part of the genesis account and therefore it is still in harmony with the current questions about what a YOM means. If we are not allowed to speak about these things, how else can one determine if the conclusions are coming from God or not?
Some words have various meanings depending on how they are used in a sentence. They can only have one meaning within the sentence. How the word is used by another writer in another sentence, can show us another meaning of the word; but it can't really show us for sure what the Priestly writer meant in Genesis 1. The way the translation is written in English, it is referring to a 24 hour day; not a long period of time.
There's no way of knowing if the Priestly writer's creation story had the A&E story in mind when he wrote or if he had his own version of the story.
There is another thread open discussing the meaning of Yom. Define literal vs non-literal
I assume it is that discussion that sparked this thread. You can discuss Yom in that thread. This thread wants to know how preachers/teachers know that what they are presenting is what God meant or if it is really their own thoughts.
You come up with different usages to support your belief system.
I come up with different usages to support my view of simple reading.
How does anyone know which one is right, if either?
How does anyone know which one represents God's intentions as opposed to man's intentions?
As my signature says: In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
quote:
I believe that the bible does not contradict itself, so if we read that Adam lived for a length of time and had to name all of the animals, reason would tell us that it would have taken him more then a few hours to do this. It likely took him more then a few years to do this.
If it all happened on the 6th day, then it reasonable to conclude that the Yom in this instance spanned a period of time and not merely 24 hours. Thats how we can be sure that a yom is more then 24 hours.
You're guessing, by comparing two stories that were probably written several hundred years apart.
I disagree with you because I don't have a problem with the intended magic of the stories. I don't believe the writers were presenting reality.
Christian preachers teach all along that spectrum from your position to mine. How does any teacher know that their position is correct and they aren't just protecting their own dogma, tradition, or belief? How do we really know who is right? Who really knows what God meant?
Realistically we can't know. We're all guessing. Each is left with the position that makes them comfortable.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 5:45 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 8:15 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 100 of 127 (549568)
03-08-2010 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by purpledawn
03-08-2010 7:33 PM


Re: Address the Topic
purpledawn writes:
We've seen people manage to corroborate many different views from various parts of the Bible. People are able to use the Bible to corroborate very differing ideas. How do you know that your conclusion is right and not totally out of line?
thats true, but only because a lot of verses are twisted to mean something they do not, they are often taken out of context, and many translators replace words that appear to fit with their theology over original word meanings. they also dont take the original word meanings into consideration.
the only way to be sure that a doctrine is correct is if it scriptures
1. Do not contradict other scriptures
2. are in harmony with Gods expressed will and purpose
3. are not taken out of context
4. use the correct meaning of the original hebrew and greek words. ie What they meant when they were written, not what the meaning later changed to.
purpledawn writes:
There's no way of knowing if the Priestly writer's creation story had the A&E story in mind when he wrote or if he had his own version of the story.
'his own version' does not compute.
God gave the message to the writers, they may have written in their own tongues, but it was God who was directing them to write. Sometimes they didnt understand it themselves which shows that it wasnt their own imaginations at work.
purpledawn writes:
Christian preachers teach all along that spectrum from your position to mine. How does any teacher know that their position is correct and they aren't just protecting their own dogma, tradition, or belief?
the scriptures reveal Gods intention, as soon as they deviate from the scriptures, they loose Gods intention.
As i said, a teaching must have the above 4 aspects if it is to be taken as truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by purpledawn, posted 03-08-2010 7:33 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by purpledawn, posted 03-08-2010 9:01 PM Peg has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 101 of 127 (549578)
03-08-2010 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Peg
03-08-2010 8:15 PM


Context or Not
quote:
thats true, but only because a lot of verses are twisted to mean something they do not, they are often taken out of context, and many translators replace words that appear to fit with their theology over original word meanings. they also dont take the original word meanings into consideration.
the only way to be sure that a doctrine is correct is if it scriptures
1. Do not contradict other scriptures
2. are in harmony with Gods expressed will and purpose
3. are not taken out of context
4. use the correct meaning of the original hebrew and greek words. ie What they meant when they were written, not what the meaning later changed to.
Both of us can support our positions using scripture without contradicting.
Both of us can support our position using the word in context we see.
Both of us can claim our position is in harmony with God's expressed will and purpose.
Both of us can support our position using the original meanings of the words.
I feel I look at the context of the writing. I feel you look at the text within the context of the current doctrine.
Can we both be right or both be wrong?
quote:
'his own version' does not compute.
God gave the message to the writers, they may have written in their own tongues, but it was God who was directing them to write. Sometimes they didnt understand it themselves which shows that it wasnt their own imaginations at work.
Other than when the writers say that God told them such and such, the writings do not support what you're saying. You have no way of knowing that God was directing all of them. That is your belief. All the authors do not tell us that they were directed by God.
You say the authors sometimes didn't understand what they wrote. I disagree with that. I feel all the authors and their audiences knew what was being said otherwise the writings were useless.
IMO, the idea that they didn't understand what they wrote or that their audience didn't understand what was said or written is an apologetic defense of doctrine.
quote:
the scriptures reveal Gods intention, as soon as they deviate from the scriptures, they loose Gods intention.
As i said, a teaching must have the above 4 aspects if it is to be taken as truth.
Except that we both can claim to fit the 4 aspects, but we have very different views. So which one of us is right?

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 8:15 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 9:43 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 102 of 127 (549582)
03-08-2010 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by purpledawn
03-08-2010 9:01 PM


Re: Context or Not
purpledawn writes:
Other than when the writers say that God told them such and such, the writings do not support what you're saying. You have no way of knowing that God was directing all of them. That is your belief. All the authors do not tell us that they were directed by God.
under the same inspiration, paul wrote
"All scripture is inspired of God" 2 Timothy 3:16
in the words of the prophets over and over we read
"And the word of Jehovah came to me" and besides that we see a multitude of passages where God is the one speaking.
purpledawn writes:
You say the authors sometimes didn't understand what they wrote. I disagree with that. I feel all the authors and their audiences knew what was being said otherwise the writings were useless.
IMO, the idea that they didn't understand what they wrote or that their audience didn't understand what was said or written is an apologetic defense of doctrine.
far from it.
Daniel 12:4-9 4And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.
8Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?
9And he went on to say: Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end.
Did Daniel understand the prophecy he had written. No, he clearly stated as much.
purpledawn writes:
Except that we both can claim to fit the 4 aspects, but we have very different views. So which one of us is right?
i would challenge you to present a doctrine which you believe to fit all 4 aspects so we can test it. personally i believe that if one of 4 fails, then so does the doctrine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by purpledawn, posted 03-08-2010 9:01 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by killinghurts, posted 03-08-2010 10:44 PM Peg has replied
 Message 106 by purpledawn, posted 03-09-2010 9:22 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 112 by Kapyong, posted 03-13-2010 4:25 PM Peg has replied

  
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 103 of 127 (549592)
03-08-2010 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Peg
03-08-2010 9:43 PM


Re: Context or Not
Peg writes:
Did Daniel understand the prophecy he had written. No, he clearly stated as much.
Back on topic...
So how do we now claim to fully understand what was meant as opposed to think we understand what was meant?
furthermore...
Did God mean to portray the current understanding? or did we, mere humans, decide (for God) what the understanding is?
Edited by killinghurts, : additional context

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 9:43 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Peg, posted 03-09-2010 3:25 AM killinghurts has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 104 of 127 (549599)
03-09-2010 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by killinghurts
03-08-2010 10:44 PM


Re: Context or Not
killinghurts writes:
So how do we now claim to fully understand what was meant as opposed to think we understand what was meant?
'We' dont.
God has shed light on his will to a selected few just as he did in ancient times thru ones such as Noah, Moses, the kings & the Prophets.... and as he did 2,000 years ago thru Jesus and the early christians.
'we' dont all simply understand the scriptures due to our own knowledge and reasoning abilities. Understanding comes thru the channel God chooses, always has and always will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by killinghurts, posted 03-08-2010 10:44 PM killinghurts has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by killinghurts, posted 03-14-2010 9:09 PM Peg has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 105 of 127 (549606)
03-09-2010 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Peg
03-07-2010 6:00 PM


Re: actually...it's not that simple
hERICtic writes:
2 Chronicles 13:11
Every morning and evening they present burnt offerings and fragrant incense to the LORD. They set out the bread on the ceremonially clean table and light the lamps on the gold lampstand every evening. We are observing the requirements of the LORD our God. But you have forsaken him.
Peg writes:
and where is the word Yom in this verse? Also, if the offering is being made in the morning and again in the evening, this is within a 12 hour period.
Unless I misspoke, I stated that any time evening and morning are used, it refers to a day was we know it. I'm not sure how your "12" hour reference helps your case whatsover. Its even less time than what I claim. Its would still be 6 increments of daylight as per Genesis when the world was created. But as I have shown you, "day" can mean daylight or 24 hours.
Peg writes:
with regard to trying to use any of the verses about morning and evening to prove that in genesis a day is only 24 hours is rediculous. Genesis is in a completely different context
Only to you. You need it to be. The point is EVERY time evening and morning are mentioned, it refers to a day as we know it.
hERICtic writes:
My challenge back to you: Find me an instance in scripture where evening/morning means long periods of time. Find me scripture where a number is given with a day that means long periods of time.
Peg writes:
I have already done this many times. In msg 18 i listed 4 of them.
Msg 18 writes:
Isaiah 1:1 "The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz that he visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the DAYS (YOM) of UzEziah, Jotham, Ahaz [and] HezEeEkiah, kings of Judah:
these days would amount to many more then 24hours because it is the whole lifetime of these people mentioned
Genesis 2:4: This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the DAY (YOM) that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
here the entire creation of both the universe and the earth are called a day, this shows that Yom can be used for the whole period of time in which an extradorinary event took place
Genesis 1:4 "After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. 5 And God began calling the light DAY (YOM)"
here we see Yom is in reference to the light that is seen in the sky
Numbers 14:34 By the number of the DAYS (YOM) that YOU spied out the land, forty days, a day (YOM) for a year, a day for a year, YOU will answer for YOUR errors forty years"
in this verse we see that a YOM is equal to an entire year
Not one of those addresses the issue. Not one. When EVENING and MORNING are used, it refers to a day, not a long period of time. When a number is used before YOM, it always refers to a 24 hour day. Heck, your verse from Genesis one clearly shows its not a long period of time. Again, when a number is used BEFORE YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day.
hERICtic writes:
Which is my point. Either the seventh day is 24 hours, which shows the previous 6 were 24 hours, or god rested on the 7th day which is still going. In either case, his creation stopped on the sixth day.
Peg writes:
well you completely missed that one, didnt you lol.
Here it is again: The 7th day has not yet ended. Do you understand that this shows that the genesis 'days' were of a very long duration???
No Peg, you're missing the point again. Its one of two things. First, if it refers to a 24 hour period, you have a problem.
If its a 24 hour day, then obviously, the previous six would be six 24 hour days also.
If its a long period of time, it still states on the seventh day creation stopped.
Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day. Which is the LAST day of creation.
If the days were billions of years, then Adam and Eve were created at the END of creation. Scripture states the beginning.
hERICtic writes:
In either case, his creation stopped on the sixth day.
This contradicts the words of Jesus:
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6).
According to Genesis, man was created on be the END of creation. If creation started billions the sixth day of six days. This wouldof years ago as per your version of Genesis, and day six is billions of years later....how can that be the beginning of creation???
Peg writes:
Were Adam and Eve created at the same time? Was their creation simultaneous on the 6th day?
Its a moot point.
Peg writes:
No it wasnt. Adam lived for an unspecified length of time before God created Eve. Adam was placed in the garden alone initially, he was given the task of naming all of the animals that God had created. Could he have named the many thousands, perhaps millions of animals, in one day? I dont think so.
So the conclusion is that the 6th Yom was a very long period of time, long enough for Adam to live alone i the garden and name all of the animals. He could not have done this in less then 24 hours.
Regardless of when on the creation day Adam was created, it still the END of the creation process, not the beginning. Creation obviously started 10+ billion of years earlier! No matter how you try to twist this, its the end of the creation process, not the beginning. Here is the kicker though.
Adam lived into the seventh day. Adam lived close to a thousand (960?), so he could ONLY be created at the very end of the sixth day. Get it? Of the 14 billion years, Adam was created at the last second!
This contradicts scripture which states he was created at the beginning.
Everything makes perfect sense, if the authors thoughts creation was six days not long periods of time. If the author believed thousands of days have passed then it makes perfect sense to state Adam was created in the beginning.
Peg writes:
to AdminPD, this point is not off topic as its reasoning is linked to determining how long a day could be.
PD, I apologize if both Peg and I should not have continued. You told DA he was off topic, so I didnt respond. But you joined in with Peg, so I am under the assumption its ok to further along this very debate. I also agree I think its ON topic.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 6:00 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Peg, posted 03-10-2010 2:10 AM hERICtic has replied
 Message 109 by AdminPD, posted 03-10-2010 7:24 AM hERICtic has not replied

  
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