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Author Topic:   Homeschooling
Percy
Member
Posts: 16029
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 16 of 51 (550031)
03-12-2010 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by hooah212002
03-11-2010 7:06 PM


There's nothing in the Wikipedia article on Tebow to indicate why he's a twat and how homeschooling made him that way.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by hooah212002, posted 03-11-2010 7:06 PM hooah212002 has responded

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1016 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 17 of 51 (550033)
03-12-2010 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by DevilsAdvocate
03-12-2010 6:01 AM


Re: Social Skills
quote:
However, the Navy has taught me to be a little more outgoing and aggressive and sometimes I am too free with my words. I have learned to balance my personal thoughts and my outward speach but it is not a trait that comes naturally to me. I am a INTJ (Introverted Intuitive Thinking Judging) personality (same as Thomas Jefferson, JFK and C.S. Lewis).

Hey this would make a good start of a thread: What Personality Profile are you. Will start this later today.


That would be great. I can find out how confused I really am.

Hopefully there is somewhere online to test.


This message is a reply to:
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Shield
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


(1)
Message 18 of 51 (550035)
03-12-2010 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
03-11-2010 6:45 PM


Re: Recent Article on Homeschooling
Foreign students only studied one subject and they get tested in just that subject while American students have to study everything from science to math to history to literature.

What the hell are you talking about? I went to public school and the danish equilant of high school, and we were taught everything from science to math to history to literature.

We have to learn English + German or French in public school (English starting at the 4th grade and German/French at the 7th grade), and in highschool we are offered a variety of other languages to learn (Russian, Spanish, Chinese, you name it)

Edited by rbp, : No reason given.


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 463 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 19 of 51 (550038)
03-12-2010 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
03-12-2010 6:37 AM


Any response I give will be ammo for those who are currently accusing me of hating anything christianity. So I will say that Time Tebow WAS homeschooled, and in my opinion he is a twat because his parents gave him crap education: religion instead of knowledge. The kid is dumb as a box of rocks. If he weren't built like a brick shit-house, he'd bagging groceries or working fast food. [/end opinion]


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"On a personal note I think he's the greatest wrestler ever. He's better than Lou Thesz, Gorgeous George -- you name it."-The Hulkster on Nature Boy Ric Flair


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Replies to this message:
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Flyer75
Member
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 20 of 51 (550039)
03-12-2010 8:47 AM


state of public schools
I of course have no problem with kids that get home schooled. We don't home school our kids but do send them to private schools. I was a product of both public and private schools. Private all the way to high school then public high school.

We have no choice in our situation. I live in the Dayton, OH public school district (google it, you'll understand our situation). No one in their right mind would send their kids to this school district if you had any hope of them making it out without being arrested less then 3 times by the 12th grade. As a police officer in this city, I've been called to the high schools on a DAILY basis (usually 6-10 officers have to go) to break up fights and collect guns off students. The school system here is literally a zoo, a social experiment gone haywire.

I have about 4-5 fellow police officer families that send their kids to the same tiny school my kids go to and only myself and one of those other families would I call fundamental. The others simply send their kids there for the education. The kids at this school test about 1.5 to 2 grades above the state level (I know, it's been discussed why that is, but the small class rooms is why we choose to pay to send our kids there). So, I think there is a trend in this country, certainly within inner city families (black and white, because our school has a high percentage of African Americans, at least in relation to the size of the school), our fed up with the crime ridden public schools and just want a better education, not necessarily a "christian" education. Same for the home schooling concept that started out as a primarily fundamental christian movement which is now probably winning more families that just want a better education.

Let me clarify before I get shredded on the public school shellacking I gave. I don't think all public schools are like this. I used a fairly extreme example. Most public schools, even around our area, are very good schools and do a great job at educating the kids and sending them off to college. I just so happen to live in a crime zone boarding on a war zone.


    
Flyer75
Member
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 21 of 51 (550040)
03-12-2010 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by hooah212002
03-12-2010 8:44 AM


hooah212002 writes:

Any response I give will be ammo for those who are currently accusing me of hating anything christianity. So I will say that Time Tebow WAS homeschooled, and in my opinion he is a twat because his parents gave him crap education: religion instead of knowledge. The kid is dumb as a box of rocks. If he weren't built like a brick shit-house, he'd bagging groceries or working fast food

Fair enough. That statement at least clarifies the position a little more soundly then your first one, although the last statement is still an arbitrary opinion and certainly not a fact.

Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by hooah212002, posted 03-12-2010 8:44 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Huntard
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 22 of 51 (550044)
03-12-2010 9:30 AM


So far, I'm getting the impression that the American public schools kinda suck ass.

Could anyoneenlighten me as to why it's gone so wrong with your public school system? It seems to be working a lot better here in Europe. Or is that just a false impression?


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 463 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 23 of 51 (550045)
03-12-2010 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Huntard
03-12-2010 9:30 AM


In general, the child/teacher ratio is too high. Kids can easily get left out/ignored. My kids' school has about 30 kids per class, and that's one teacher and an assistant.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"On a personal note I think he's the greatest wrestler ever. He's better than Lou Thesz, Gorgeous George -- you name it."-The Hulkster on Nature Boy Ric Flair


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Huntard, posted 03-12-2010 9:30 AM Huntard has not yet responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 659 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 24 of 51 (550047)
03-12-2010 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by hooah212002
03-12-2010 8:44 AM


Any response I give will be ammo for those who are currently accusing me of hating anything christianity. So I will say that Time Tebow WAS homeschooled, and in my opinion he is a twat because his parents gave him crap education: religion instead of knowledge. The kid is dumb as a box of rocks. If he weren't built like a brick shit-house, he'd bagging groceries or working fast food.

How do you know so much about this Tebow guy? Do you know him personally? Sounds like you are prejudging this guy without even giving him the benefit of the doubt.

If you are, than you are falling into the same trap that many religious fundamentalist do, using blind faith (aka judging a book by its cover) to unfairly paint a caracture of people you do not like rather than using critical thinking and analysis to determine the truth. To say all homeschoolers, even religious ones, are idiots and unable to educate their children is unfairly poisoning the well.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by hooah212002, posted 03-12-2010 8:44 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 659 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 25 of 51 (550049)
03-12-2010 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Huntard
03-12-2010 9:30 AM


Could anyoneenlighten me as to why it's gone so wrong with your public school system? It seems to be working a lot better here in Europe. Or is that just a false impression?

More like an unfair generalization. There are good and there are bad schools in the United States. If you are talking about on average, than it depends on what standard you are using to judge them.

Can you please enlighten us Huntard on what they typically teach in European schools and the level of knowledge an average 5th grader and 12 th grader should know after graduating so we can adequately compare the two (US and European schools)?

Thanks!


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Huntard, posted 03-12-2010 9:30 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Huntard, posted 03-12-2010 10:50 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
Flyer75
Member
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 26 of 51 (550051)
03-12-2010 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Huntard
03-12-2010 9:30 AM


Huntard, there are some very very good public schools in America. I went to my sister-in-laws graduation a couple years back and was very very impressed with the kids that gave speeches, played music, ect. One kid got a full ride education scholarship to Yale. Funny thing is, that school district boarders mine. It's night and day difference. Why?

One, the great school district is comprised of middle to upper class citizens who care about their kids education. Parents are involved. Great tax base for great programs that the kids can participate in like music, art, ect. Most of the kids come from 2 parent homes. Our school district is the exact opposite....most kids come from single parent homes where said single parent could care two craps about their kids education, no tax base, crime galore in the neighborhood. This tends to be true across America when it comes to the bigger cities vs. suburban America.

Class room size, imo, isn't relevant when comparing public school vs. public school. In my example, the great public school probably has even more kids per class room vs. our failing one. I think, again imo, that class room size does matter when comparing private schools and home schools vs. any public school.


This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 27 of 51 (550053)
03-12-2010 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by DevilsAdvocate
03-12-2010 10:26 AM


DevilsAdvocate writes:

Can you please enlighten us Huntard on what they typically teach in European schools and the level of knowledge an average 5th grader and 12 th grader should know after graduating so we can adequately compare the two (US and European schools)?


Uhm, could you then please tell me what 12th graders are? We've got a bit different classification here, I think.

You've got 1st grade through to 8th grade. That's the "basisschool"(basic school).

Then you move to a new school, depending on your level of knowledge. This happens when you're 12-13. You've basically got three levels in this "middelbare school" (middle school). VMBO (preparing for middle work-eductation, lasting 4 years) HAVO (Higher preparation for next level education, lasting 5 years) and VWO (preparation for scientific education, lasting 6 years).

After that (16-19 years) you go to either an MBO (middle work-eduation), HBO (higher work-education) or WO (scientific education, we also call this a university). When you finish a HBO, you're a bachelor. When you finish your complete WO (university) you're a master. These are the same level as your degrees, I believe.

And all of this is basically public school, paid for (at least in part, or sometimes completely, depending on income of the parents) by the government. Also, everyone on a MBO, HBO or WO education gets a "study finance" of about 100 euros when living at home with their parents, and about 450 euros (I believe) when living on their own, every month.

That's in a nutshell our education system. I hope you can figure out how much knowledge is required for each step. If not, ask away


This message is a reply to:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 659 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 28 of 51 (550066)
03-12-2010 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Huntard
03-12-2010 10:50 AM


Uhm, could you then please tell me what 12th graders are? We've got a bit different classification here, I think.
You've got 1st grade through to 8th grade. That's the "basisschool"(basic school).

Then you move to a new school, depending on your level of knowledge. This happens when you're 12-13. You've basically got three levels in this "middelbare school" (middle school). VMBO (preparing for middle work-eductation, lasting 4 years) HAVO (Higher preparation for next level education, lasting 5 years) and VWO (preparation for scientific education, lasting 6 years).

It sounds like comparing American schools with European ones is almost like comparing apples to oranges. Understanding that there is more of a push of vocational skills at the lower grades in European schools vice US schools, it is a bit unfair to compare the two.

Here is basically how American schools are layed out:

1. Preschool (optional) 4 & 5 year olds

2. Elementary School:
Kindergarten and 1st through 5th/6th grade
Subjects: reading, writing, arithmetic, science, art, etc

3. Middle School (5th/6th thru 8th grade) or Junior High School (7th and 8th grade) depending on region
Subjects: same as above progressing to more advanced subjects i.e. health, pre-algebra, world history, etc

4. High School: 9th thru 12th grade (most kids graduate between 16 and 18 years old)
Subjects: General Studies i.e. geometry, algebra, triginometry, basic calculus, biology, chemistry, world and american history, government (civics), etc w/ very little emphasis on vocational skills

5. 2 yr Vocational School/Community College (optional) or 2/4 yr College/University (optional)

The basic breakdown of the US population (over the average college graduate age of 25):

Primary School/High School Dropout: 20%
High School Graduate (including GED equivalent): 29%
Some college, no degree: 21%
Associate Degree: 6%
Bachelor Degree: 15%
Graduate (Masters)/Professional (Doctorate) Degree: 9%

After that (16-19 years) you go to either an MBO (middle work-eduation), HBO (higher work-education) or WO (scientific education, we also call this a university). When you finish a HBO, you're a bachelor. When you finish your complete WO (university) you're a master. These are the same level as your degrees, I believe.

They are. Most college degrees are transferable between Europe
(though not the Bahamas ) and the US.

And all of this is basically public school, paid for (at least in part, or sometimes completely, depending on income of the parents) by the government. Also, everyone on a MBO, HBO or WO education gets a "study finance" of about 100 euros when living at home with their parents, and about 450 euros (I believe) when living on their own, every month.

Our schools come out of tax revenue paid to the government. There is not set amount for each parent to pay, this amount usually comes from income taxes which the bottom 1/3 of the US population does not pay.

That's in a nutshell our education system. I hope you can figure out how much knowledge is required for each step. If not, ask away

Thanks. I still think that comparing the two is almost apples to oranges.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Huntard, posted 03-12-2010 10:50 AM Huntard has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5538
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 29 of 51 (550070)
03-12-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Huntard
03-12-2010 9:30 AM


Huntard writes:
So far, I'm getting the impression that the American public schools kinda suck ass.

Education starts at home. There's a lot of anti-intellectualism in America.

Communities that value education usually have pretty good schools. In communities where there is a lot of anti-intellectualism we (unsurprisingly) see much poorer results coming from the schools.


This message is a reply to:
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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2069 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 30 of 51 (550072)
03-12-2010 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Huntard
03-12-2010 9:30 AM


Reasons why US schools can be lousy.
1. The nine-month school year. It made some sense back when you needed the kids home all summer to help with the crops. Maybe not so much today. Are there any other industrialized countries where they let their kids forget what they've learned for 1/4 of the year?

2. The classroom format. It'd administrativly convienient to have one person at the front of the room talking to a passive group of 20-30 kids all facing forward in uniform rows, but that's not the best way for most kids to learn. Learning is best fostered in an interactive, individualized environment.

3. Cultural anti-intellectualism in school. When was the last time you heard of a high school holding an awards ceremony for kids with high SAT scores, or a pep rally before a science fair? For many Americans, competition in sports is admirible, but competition and celebration of achievement in academics is elitism.

4. Simple-minded egalatarianism. Again, while we're perfectly fine with the fact that some kids are going to make the basketball team and some aren't, at the same time public opinion holds that you're being unfair or you're going to hurts some kids' self-esteem if you track some for vocational training and some for higher academics.

Really, it comes down to what a society values. Ours often values consumption and pleasure. Americans seem childish to me much of the time: sexaully immature, selfish and self-centered and just not very bright sometimes. But maybe that's just me.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
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