Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8803 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-23-2017 9:34 AM
415 online now:
halibut, NoNukes, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Phat (AdminPhat), Tangle (6 members, 409 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 822,879 Year: 27,485/21,208 Month: 1,398/1,714 Week: 241/365 Day: 10/73 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1819
20
21222324Next
Author Topic:   Does Athiesm = no beliefs?
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 668
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 5.0


(3)
Message 286 of 348 (786157)
06-17-2016 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Hawkins
06-17-2016 1:52 PM


All religions (including atheism) branch out from these 2 camps

Atheism is not a religion. It is a specific response to a claim: is there a god. The corollary to atheism is theism. And theism, in and of itself, is not a religion. It is also a response to the same claim.

Ironically, there is no evidence showing that life discontinues

You have it backwards. There is tons of evidence that shows life discontinues. i.e., people, animals, plants die. There is, however, no evidence of anything persisting post-death.

Camp 1) however, as influenced (subconsciously) by the "life discontinues" faith fallaciously conclude that they should stay until more evidence showing that it's not a hoax.

Once again, you are attempting to shift the burden of proof. There is no 'life discontinues faith'. Atheists do not absolutely make any statements about life after death. Without any evidence to the contrary, they just conclude that there is likely nothing after death. All evidence points to this natural life being the only one that exists.

Atheism is such a religion with a large group of humans sharing a common belief.

Once again, atheism is not a religion. I can actually easily prove that:

Buddhists have no concept of a personal god in their belief system. Yet they do believe in the concept of reincarnation. So they are technically 'atheists'. Yet they are atheists that have a belief in life after death.

To reiterate, atheism is not a belief system. It is merely a response to a claim. In the same way that theism alone is also not a belief system. It is also a response to a claim. What you are attempting to do is apply the same 'faith based' conditions that exist in religious circles into the atheist view. Which does not make sense as alluded to in the previous explanations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Hawkins, posted 06-17-2016 1:52 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 3:08 PM Diomedes has not yet responded
 Message 295 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2016 12:21 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10078
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 287 of 348 (786161)
06-17-2016 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Tangle
12-24-2015 2:54 AM


GOD by definition
Tangle writes:

I don't believe there is a god. I don't know whether there is or not but I see no evidence for one. So I've concluded there isn't one pending contradictory information.

I can't know, but I can believe or not believe.

I respect that!

I think it would be helpful, however, for us all to come to some sort of consensus on the definition of the thing we do or do not believe in.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2015 2:54 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2016 6:43 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5163
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 288 of 348 (786166)
06-17-2016 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Phat
06-17-2016 3:59 PM


Re: GOD by definition
Phat writes:

I think it would be helpful, however, for us all to come to some sort of consensus on the definition of the thing we do or do not believe in.

God(s).


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Phat, posted 06-17-2016 3:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 3:43 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10078
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 289 of 348 (786177)
06-18-2016 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Tangle
06-17-2016 6:43 PM


Re: GOD by definition
quote:
god (ɡɒd)
n
1. (Ecclesiastical Terms) a supernatural being, who is worshipped as the controller of some part of the universe or some aspect of life in the world or is the personification of some force.
2. (Ecclesiastical Terms) an image, idol, or symbolic representation of such a deity
3. any person or thing to which excessive attention is given: money was his god.
4. a man who has qualities regarded as making him superior to other men
5. (Theatre) (in plural) the gallery of a theatre

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2016 6:43 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 06-18-2016 9:10 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29622
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 290 of 348 (786180)
06-18-2016 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
06-18-2016 3:43 AM


Re: GOD by definition
Fortunately none of those definitions tell us anything about what god is or if there is a god; but it does emphasize that all the definitions are simply human constructs.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 3:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 2:00 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10078
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 291 of 348 (786189)
06-18-2016 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
06-18-2016 9:10 AM


Re: GOD by definition
I always like your definition...The Creator Of All Seen And Unseen. That sums up my belief, also.

Where we usually disagreed is that I believed that God had a soft spot for humans over pond scum and other less complex living organisms...whereas you never limited your belief in GOD to be exclusively for mankind.

Edited by Phat, : added


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 06-18-2016 9:10 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10078
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 292 of 348 (786191)
06-18-2016 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Diomedes
06-17-2016 2:36 PM


Claims and counterclaims
To reiterate, atheism is not a belief system. It is merely a response to a claim. In the same way that theism alone is also not a belief system. It is also a response to a claim.
Believers would assert that without faith it is impossible to please God.
Atheists may well assert that without evidence it is impossible to prove God.

perhaps some key questions to ask:

  • Is evidence in and of itself the key criteria behind establishment of fact?
  • Is faith all that a believer ever has to go on? If so, does this constitute weak faith or strong faith?
  • Is the burden of proof on either side? Or is it all a wash?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 286 by Diomedes, posted 06-17-2016 2:36 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

      
  • Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10078
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 293 of 348 (786192)
    06-18-2016 3:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 207 by ringo
    12-19-2015 12:23 PM


    Ringos Believe It Or Not
    According to the all-powerful Yahoo! Answers:
    quote:
    Disbelief is being shaken up by a challenge to a belief about something or someone
    Unbelief is active rejection of a belief
    Nonbelief is non -acceptance of a belief

    "I can't believe you said that!" is disbelief. In this particular example, you know it's true but you still "can't believe".
    Not believing in Odin is nonbelief. You can believe in Ganesh and non-believe in Odin at the same time.

    What you're describing is more like unbelief: Unbelievers believe that God un-exists.

    I personally don't believe that any gods exist but I don't self-identify as an atheist. I self-identify as an agnostic. I have no active unbelief.

    Do you personally feel as if evidence would persuade you or others or are you more of the camp that prefers not to believe for reasons other than evidence?(Personal preference, perhaps)

    There are some who would prefer that there be no God. There are others who wish fervently that it were so.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 207 by ringo, posted 12-19-2015 12:23 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 294 by Theodoric, posted 06-18-2016 11:59 PM Phat has responded
     Message 297 by ringo, posted 06-19-2016 3:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 316 by Theodoric, posted 06-21-2016 10:38 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 5772
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 10.0


    Message 294 of 348 (786221)
    06-18-2016 11:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
    06-18-2016 3:14 PM


    Re: Ringos Believe It Or Not
    There are some who would prefer that there be no God. There are others who wish fervently that it were so.

    Who? Give examples.

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 293 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 3:14 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 317 by Phat, posted 06-22-2016 2:03 AM Theodoric has responded

        
    New Cat's Eye
    Member
    Posts: 11816
    From: near St. Louis
    Joined: 01-27-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 295 of 348 (786253)
    06-19-2016 12:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 286 by Diomedes
    06-17-2016 2:36 PM


    Once again, atheism is not a religion. I can actually easily prove that:

    Buddhists have no concept of a personal god in their belief system. Yet they do believe in the concept of reincarnation. So they are technically 'atheists'. Yet they are atheists that have a belief in life after death.

    To reiterate, atheism is not a belief system. It is merely a response to a claim.

    What do you call a belief system that claims that no gods exist?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 286 by Diomedes, posted 06-17-2016 2:36 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 296 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 12:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
     Message 328 by Taq, posted 06-22-2016 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

      
    Dr Adequate
    Member
    Posts: 15972
    Joined: 07-20-2006
    Member Rating: 4.9


    Message 296 of 348 (786255)
    06-19-2016 12:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 295 by New Cat's Eye
    06-19-2016 12:21 PM


    What do you call a belief system that claims that no gods exist?

    ... Buddhism?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 295 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2016 12:21 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 298 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 4:53 PM Dr Adequate has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13881
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 297 of 348 (786274)
    06-19-2016 3:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
    06-18-2016 3:14 PM


    Re: Ringos Believe It Or Not
    Phat writes:

    Do you personally feel as if evidence would persuade you or others or are you more of the camp that prefers not to believe for reasons other than evidence?


    There is no camp that prefers not to believe.

    As I have said before, I personally would like to believe but I can't. It would especially be a comfort to believe that some of the people who have died before me I'll see again. I wish I could believe that but I can't.

    Phat writes:

    There are some who would prefer that there be no God.


    I would prefer that no God or other alien warlord incinerate me. I have enough earthly enemies such as bacteria, etc.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 293 by Phat, posted 06-18-2016 3:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    New Cat's Eye
    Member
    Posts: 11816
    From: near St. Louis
    Joined: 01-27-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 298 of 348 (786354)
    06-20-2016 4:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 296 by Dr Adequate
    06-19-2016 12:30 PM


    What do you call a belief system that claims that no gods exist?

    ... Buddhism?

    Nope, sure doesn't.

    Plus, there's a lot more to Buddhism. If a belief system just included the claim that no gods exist, then what would you call it?

    Wiki says:

    quote:
    Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

    In the strictest sense, atheism is the position that there are no gods. It is not just simply "a response to a claim".

    Edited by Cat Sci, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 296 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 12:30 PM Dr Adequate has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 299 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2016 5:25 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
     Message 301 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2016 10:59 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 5163
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.5


    (1)
    Message 299 of 348 (786361)
    06-20-2016 5:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 298 by New Cat's Eye
    06-20-2016 4:53 PM


    Cat Sci writes:

    In the strictest sense, atheism is the position that there are no gods. It is not just simply "a response to a claim".

    It's a response to the claim that gods exist.

    It's a good description because if it wasn't for people saying that god's DO exist, it wouldn't occur to an atheist that they did.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 298 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 4:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 6:28 PM Tangle has responded
     Message 307 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 12:19 PM Tangle has responded

      
    New Cat's Eye
    Member
    Posts: 11816
    From: near St. Louis
    Joined: 01-27-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 300 of 348 (786365)
    06-20-2016 6:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 299 by Tangle
    06-20-2016 5:25 PM


    if it wasn't for people saying that god's DO exist, it wouldn't occur to an atheist that they did.

    A person could come to the question of gods existing on their own, and then later reject the idea and go on to proclaim that they don't.

    And if an atheist could never consider a god without another person claiming it, then the first theists could have never come about.

    So this idea that it is merely and only a response to a claim cannot possibly be true.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 299 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2016 5:25 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 304 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 3:18 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
     Message 306 by Diomedes, posted 06-21-2016 10:02 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

      
    RewPrev1
    ...
    1819
    20
    21222324Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017