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Author Topic:   Does Athiesm = no beliefs?
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 301 of 348 (786369)
06-20-2016 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 4:53 PM


If a belief system just included the claim that no gods exist, then what would you call it?

To start with, I'd call it not a belief system. That on its own doesn't make a system of thought any more than a disbelief in leprechauns does.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 4:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 11:39 PM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 06-21-2016 1:25 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11538
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 302 of 348 (786370)
06-20-2016 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Dr Adequate
06-20-2016 10:59 PM


Is there no limit to your pedantry? Consider that the system implies believing itself exists and that the additional claim is that no god exists. Can you bring yourself to call it that then? Why must you so strongly cling to dodging it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2016 10:59 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2016 7:36 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9490
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 303 of 348 (786371)
06-21-2016 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Dr Adequate
06-20-2016 10:59 PM


Belief As A Concept.
good point. Sometimes we forget to consider how others might think. Not everyone thinks alike by any means.

If I read a story of fiction, I may acknowledge that some of the characters believe certain ways about certain elements of the story but this in and of itself does not mean I share the belief(s) that the characters in the story express.

If I personally have a belief about God or about some element or thing that cannot be objectively proven or evidenced (hence belief) I cannot expect others to share my belief or even to understand it beyond acknowledgement of it.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2016 10:59 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4872
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 304 of 348 (786372)
06-21-2016 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 6:28 PM


quote:
A person could come to the question of gods existing on their own, and then later reject the idea and go on to proclaim that they don't.

So someone with no concept of gods could invent gods then dismiss them? Ok he has a hypothesis, a kind of claim I guess, then rejects it for lack of supporting evidence. It's now gone away.

It's only the fact that others make the claim that god(s) exist that the claim still stands and has to be rejected again and again.

So this idea that it is merely and only a response to a claim cannot possibly be true.

If you say there is a god and I say there isn't, is that not a response to your claim?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 6:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2016 1:43 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 305 of 348 (786377)
06-21-2016 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 11:39 PM


Is there no limit to your pedantry?

I have infinite reserves of accuracy.

Consider that the system implies believing itself exists ...

... ?

Can you bring yourself to call it that then?

Callit what then?

Why must you so strongly cling to dodging it?

Huh?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 11:39 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 636
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 306 of 348 (786384)
06-21-2016 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 6:28 PM


A person could come to the question of gods existing on their own, and then later reject the idea and go on to proclaim that they don't.

But in this circumstance, the logic stands. It is akin to someone having an idea, attempting to verify the veracity of that idea, realizing that the idea does not hold water, and then moving on to the next idea.

For example, if I have an idea of planting a tree in my backyard. I go to the backyard, perform measurements, do an assessment and then realize that the tree won't fit or its roots would undermine the other plants in my backyard. So I decide against that idea. Have I rejected the idea of planting a tree or have I accepted in the positive that I now have a non-existent tree in my backyard?

And if an atheist could never consider a god without another person claiming it, then the first theists could have never come about.

Theists came about as humans became self aware and began to hypothesize about their surroundings and how nature functioned. They originally began to consider concepts like 'spirits' that manifested in things like trees, rivers, etc. It was their way of describing the behavior of certain things in nature that they couldn't otherwise quantify because they lacked the baseline understanding of how things work. From there, the concepts of 'spirits' began to transform into ideas regarding pixies, forest folk, and eventually they started to anthropomorphize these things as 'gods'. The end result over thousands of years was a myriad of religious beliefs.

But I can guarantee you that as some of these ideas were being posited, there were individuals in that time frame that didn't believe in spirits, pixies, etc. The rejection of claims requires the claim to exist. And as such, yes, the concept of atheism merely only being a response to a claim is exactly accurate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 6:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2016 2:11 PM Diomedes has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13314
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 307 of 348 (786397)
06-21-2016 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Tangle
06-20-2016 5:25 PM


Tangle writes:

It's a response to the claim that gods exist.


So it isn't just a lack of response after all?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2016 5:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 1:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4872
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 308 of 348 (786401)
06-21-2016 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by ringo
06-21-2016 12:19 PM


ringo writes:

So it isn't just a lack of response after all?

uh?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 12:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 1:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13314
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 309 of 348 (786403)
06-21-2016 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
06-21-2016 1:10 PM


Tangle writes:

ringo writes:

So it isn't just a lack of response after all?


uh?

Well, they say that baldness is just a lack of hair - not a hair colour. You don't go around telling people you're bald.

So, if atheism is just a lack of belief - not an active disbelief - then you don't need to go around telling people you don't believe. There's no need for a "response" to belief at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 1:10 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2016 1:24 PM ringo has responded
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 1:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 310 of 348 (786404)
06-21-2016 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by ringo
06-21-2016 1:18 PM


I don't go around telling people that leprechauns don't exist. Nonetheless, I would never have explicitly come to the conclusion that they don't unless someone else had first invented the concept of leprechauns.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 1:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 1:26 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13314
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 311 of 348 (786405)
06-21-2016 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Dr Adequate
06-21-2016 1:24 PM


Dr Adequate writes:

I don't go around telling people that leprechauns don't exist.


I'm just saying that no response is actually necessary.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2016 1:24 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4872
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 312 of 348 (786406)
06-21-2016 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by ringo
06-21-2016 1:18 PM


ringo writes:

So, if atheism is just a lack of belief - not an active disbelief - then you don't need to go around telling people you don't believe.

That's possibly one of the dumbest arguments for arguments sake that you've come out with yet and there's a lot of competition.

There's no need for a "response" to belief at all.

Except that believers try to use their beliefs to make me do things I don't want to and I regard as daft and dangerous in accordance to their beliefs. You know, like remove evolution from education, fund churches to spout nonsense and not shop on Sundays. Another bunch want to kill me. The hell I'll respond.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 1:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by ringo, posted 06-22-2016 3:50 PM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11538
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 313 of 348 (786407)
06-21-2016 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Tangle
06-21-2016 3:18 AM


quote:
A person could come to the question of gods existing on their own, and then later reject the idea and go on to proclaim that they don't.

So someone with no concept of gods could invent gods then dismiss them? Ok he has a hypothesis, a kind of claim I guess, then rejects it for lack of supporting evidence. It's now gone away.

That's different. You omitted the part where they go around proclaiming that gods don't exist. Would that make them not an atheist?

It's only the fact that others make the claim that god(s) exist that the claim still stands and has to be rejected again and again.

No, it's not only that. People can and do proselytize atheism even when others aren't making claims to them.

So this idea that it is merely and only a response to a claim cannot possibly be true.

If you say there is a god and I say there isn't, is that not a response to your claim?

Sure, but proclaiming atheism without a claim to respond to is still atheism despite not being a response to a claim. As I said, atheism is not just a response to a claim.

Again:

quote:
Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.
From wikipedia

Note that in moving to "a response to claim", you have gone from the broadest sense of simply being an absence of belief to the less broad sense of being the rejection of a belief.

And so far, your obstinance has prevented you from being able to admit that the narrowest sense of the word even exists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 3:18 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11538
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 314 of 348 (786409)
06-21-2016 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Diomedes
06-21-2016 10:02 AM


A person could come to the question of gods existing on their own, and then later reject the idea and go on to proclaim that they don't.

But in this circumstance, the logic stands. It is akin to someone having an idea, attempting to verify the veracity of that idea, realizing that the idea does not hold water, and then moving on to the next idea.

You, too, omitted the part where you go on to proclaim that the idea is wrong. Funny how you guys just remove that part instead of addressing it.

Are you no longer an atheist if you proselytize?

For example, if I have an idea of planting a tree in my backyard. I go to the backyard, perform measurements, do an assessment and then realize that the tree won't fit or its roots would undermine the other plants in my backyard. So I decide against that idea. Have I rejected the idea of planting a tree or have I accepted in the positive that I now have a non-existent tree in my backyard?

You could inform your roommate that you cannot have a tree in the back yard.

Theists came about as humans became self aware and began to hypothesize about their surroundings and how nature functioned. They originally began to consider concepts like 'spirits' that manifested in things like trees, rivers, etc. It was their way of describing the behavior of certain things in nature that they couldn't otherwise quantify because they lacked the baseline understanding of how things work. From there, the concepts of 'spirits' began to transform into ideas regarding pixies, forest folk, and eventually they started to anthropomorphize these things as 'gods'. The end result over thousands of years was a myriad of religious beliefs.

But I can guarantee you that as some of these ideas were being posited, there were individuals in that time frame that didn't believe in spirits, pixies, etc. The rejection of claims requires the claim to exist.

"Only natural beings exist on this planet and none of the extra-things that anybody may come up with are going to be real. None of them exist. Disbelieve them all, son, and go and spread this truth. There are no hidden beings around us."

But I can guarantee you that as some of these ideas were being posited, there were individuals in that time frame that didn't believe in spirits, pixies, etc. The rejection of claims requires the claim to exist. And as such, yes, the concept of atheism merely only being a response to a claim is exactly accurate.

You're wrong to call it merely that. I can be more, there is a narrower sense of the word:

quote:
Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.
From wikipedia

It doesn't require a claim to take that position nor to proclaim it yourself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Diomedes, posted 06-21-2016 10:02 AM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Phat, posted 06-21-2016 4:59 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 318 by Diomedes, posted 06-22-2016 10:38 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9490
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 315 of 348 (786419)
06-21-2016 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2016 2:11 PM


Evidence vs Faith
"Only natural beings exist on this planet and none of the extra-things that anybody may come up with are going to be real. None of them exist. Disbelieve them all, son, and go and spread this truth. There are no hidden beings around us."
I respectfully disagree with this assessment though in regards to strict objective evidence I cannot refute it.

So I'll leave it alone and allow you the same right to your belief as you allow me my right to mine.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2016 2:11 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
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