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Author Topic:   Does Athiesm = no beliefs?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5164
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 331 of 348 (786526)
06-22-2016 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by ringo
06-22-2016 3:50 PM


ringo writes:

You insist that I am an atheist.

If you don't believe in god(s), then you're an atheist. It's very simple.

quote:
You seem to want me on your side even though you think I'm dumb.

Couple of points, I don't care which side you're on and you're not dumb, you just regularly say dumb things purely for arguments sake.

quote:
You're an evangelical atheist.

Maybe. So?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by ringo, posted 06-22-2016 3:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Phat, posted 06-23-2016 9:57 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 339 by ringo, posted 06-23-2016 12:33 PM Tangle has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 332 of 348 (786536)
06-22-2016 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Taq
06-22-2016 4:08 PM


Atheism and agnosticism are different things. They are not different positions on a scale.

Atheism has to do with belief.
Agnosticism has to do with knowledge.

Gnostic Theist - Knows and believes there is a god
Agnostic Theist - Concedes has no knowledge there is a god but believes there is

Gnostic Atheist - Knows there is no god and does not believe either
Agnostic Atheist - Concedes has no knowledge there is no god, but has no belief or reason to believe there is.

They only rational choices are the agnostic ones. It is impossible to know something with no evidence to back up that knowledge.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Taq, posted 06-22-2016 4:08 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Diomedes, posted 06-23-2016 9:48 AM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 345 by Stile, posted 06-27-2016 11:14 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Diomedes
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Posts: 668
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 333 of 348 (786557)
06-23-2016 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by Theodoric
06-22-2016 8:14 PM


Atheism has to do with belief.
Agnosticism has to do with knowledge.

Gnostic Theist - Knows and believes there is a god
Agnostic Theist - Concedes has no knowledge there is a god but believes there is

Gnostic Atheist - Knows there is no god and does not believe either
Agnostic Atheist - Concedes has no knowledge there is no god, but has no belief or reason to believe there is.

Good summation. And this is what I usually try to convey (with limited success) when I have these discussions with religious folks.

Sometimes, the concepts of 'Strong Atheism' and 'Weak Atheism' have also been used in the past, but I have never been a fan of these as they are too vague and open to interpretation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 8:14 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10079
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 334 of 348 (786558)
06-23-2016 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Tangle
06-22-2016 5:35 PM


For The Record
quote:
An evangelical atheist is an atheist who is not content merely with his own lack of faith but is also obsessed with (i) censoring expressions of faith by others and (ii) attempting to sow disbelief in others around him.
Thats evil.

You don't strike me as quite that mean, however..Tangle.

After all, what harm can believers cause that would inspire us to try and make fewer of them?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2016 5:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by jar, posted 06-23-2016 10:06 AM Phat has responded
 Message 341 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2016 3:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29622
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 335 of 348 (786559)
06-23-2016 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by Phat
06-23-2016 9:57 AM


Re: For The Record
Phat writes:

After all, what harm can believers cause that would inspire us to try and make fewer of them?

"True Believers", those who are sure of their beliefs should always be feared. Whether they are "True Believers" in some religion, a political party, a social system or convention, an economic policy, a nation or race, they need to be seen as a potential threat.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Phat, posted 06-23-2016 9:57 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 06-23-2016 10:17 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10079
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 336 of 348 (786561)
06-23-2016 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by jar
06-23-2016 10:06 AM


Re: For The Record
Do you mean those people who are so sure of their "answers" that they dare not question them? If so I agree that asking questions is always a good trait.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by jar, posted 06-23-2016 10:06 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by jar, posted 06-23-2016 10:24 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29622
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 337 of 348 (786562)
06-23-2016 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
06-23-2016 10:17 AM


Re: For The Record
Phat writes:

Do you mean those people who are so sure of their "answers" that they dare not question them? If so I agree that asking questions is always a good trait.

I mean those who are so sure of their answers that there is no need to question them.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 06-23-2016 10:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 338 of 348 (786564)
06-23-2016 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by Theodoric
06-22-2016 4:12 PM


I don't understand how that has anything to do with what we're talking about.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 4:12 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Theodoric, posted 06-23-2016 3:50 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13885
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 339 of 348 (786568)
06-23-2016 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Tangle
06-22-2016 5:35 PM


Tangle writes:

If you don't believe in god(s), then you're an atheist. It's very simple.


And if you don't know, you're agnostic. Equally simple.

If you don't know whether you believe or not, it becomes less simple. Am I an atheist or a deist? I don't know.

Is there such a thing as an adeist in your pantheon of stances?

Tangle writes:

... you just regularly say dumb things purely for arguments sake.


Well, if you can't address the dumb arguments - which you regularly can't - how are you going to address the smart ones?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2016 5:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2016 4:57 PM ringo has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 340 of 348 (786580)
06-23-2016 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by New Cat's Eye
06-23-2016 11:00 AM


That explains your problem.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2016 11:00 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2016 4:18 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5164
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 341 of 348 (786581)
06-23-2016 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Phat
06-23-2016 9:57 AM


Re: For The Record
Phat writes:


"An evangelical Christian is an Christian who is not content merely with his own faith but is also obsessed with (i) censoring expressions of diferent faith by others and (ii) attempting to sow belief in others around him."

Thats evil.

That's the Christian message isn't it?

You don't strike me as quite that mean, however..Tangle.

I don't think it's either evil or mean - but it isn't me. This place is pretty much the only place I discuss this stuff - nobody else cares much where I come from. So if I am, we all are.

After all, what harm can believers cause that would inspire us to try and make fewer of them?

Where do I start.......?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Phat, posted 06-23-2016 9:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 342 of 348 (786582)
06-23-2016 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Theodoric
06-23-2016 3:50 PM


But you were the one who was completely wrong about what I was thinking. So it's your problem not mine.

And apparently you can't even explain how you got there. So that's two problems.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Theodoric, posted 06-23-2016 3:50 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5164
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 343 of 348 (786588)
06-23-2016 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by ringo
06-23-2016 12:33 PM


ringo writes:

And if you don't know, you're agnostic. Equally simple.

Wrong, but I'm not starting that again here.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by ringo, posted 06-23-2016 12:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by ringo, posted 06-24-2016 12:23 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13885
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 344 of 348 (786665)
06-24-2016 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Tangle
06-23-2016 4:57 PM


Tangle writes:

ringo writes:

And if you don't know, you're agnostic. Equally simple.


Wrong, but I'm not starting that again here.

Feel free to run away when you can't refute the obvious.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2016 4:57 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3037
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 345 of 348 (786782)
06-27-2016 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by Theodoric
06-22-2016 8:14 PM


Theodoric writes:

Gnostic Atheist - Knows there is no god and does not believe either
Agnostic Atheist - Concedes has no knowledge there is no god, but has no belief or reason to believe there is.

They only rational choices are the agnostic ones. It is impossible to know something with no evidence to back up that knowledge.

This doesn't seem right to me.

If it's not rational to say you "know there is no god..." is it ever rational to say you "know there is no Santa Claus...?"

If we have reports on where something should be, how it should act... and we check those places and the consequences we should find, and nothing is ever found... over and over and over...
When does it become rational to say you know the thing doesn't exist?

"Never." Seems a bit too far fetched, to me.

Rewording the issue another way:
Is it possible to rationally say you know something... and then be proven wrong by additional information obtained at some point in the future?

Does "knowledge" imply "absolute perfection?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 8:14 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by ringo, posted 06-27-2016 12:22 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply
 Message 347 by Theodoric, posted 06-27-2016 11:32 PM Stile has responded

    
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