Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 95 (8831 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-20-2018 4:10 PM
270 online now:
jar, Modulous (AdminModulous), NoNukes, ooh-child, PaulK, Rrhain (6 members, 264 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: DeepaManjusha
Post Volume:
Total: 830,286 Year: 5,109/29,783 Month: 1,041/1,467 Week: 238/462 Day: 25/42 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
2324
25
262728Next
Author Topic:   Does Atheism = No beliefs?
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6306
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 361 of 414 (827463)
01-25-2018 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by GDR
01-25-2018 6:56 PM


GDR writes:

quote:
What would you call someone who believes that there probably is an intelligent cause for our existence, but does not adhere to any specific religion, or even any particular belief in the nature of that intelligence?

A believer. Hence not an atheist. And not really an agnostic, either. They aren't saying they don't know on a fundamental level. They are saying they don't know about specifics due to lack of evidence. There is a difference between saying, "Someone was here but I know nothing about who it was," and saying, "I don't know if anyone was here or not."

quote:
He isn't really theistic because he doesn't necessarily believe that this intelligence is at all involved with the world now

Huh? Why does that destroy his belief? That is the essence of theism: Belief. That is the very thing that defines atheism: Lack of belief.

quote:
he isn't really a deist because he acknowledges that possibly he/she/it could be involved

Maybe not in the strictest sense, but that would be splitting hairs.

quote:
and he isn't an atheist either. Wouldn't agnostic fit that person better than any other term. I suggest that there is a lot of people who fall into that category.

What's wrong with "believer" and/or "theist"? That they don't have a fancy proper noun to attach to themselves doesn't stop them from believing.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by GDR, posted 01-25-2018 6:56 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 01-26-2018 12:25 AM Rrhain has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4368
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 362 of 414 (827464)
01-26-2018 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Rrhain
01-25-2018 11:21 PM


Rrhain writes:

What's wrong with "believer" and/or "theist"? That they don't have a fancy proper noun to attach to themselves doesn't stop them from believing.


Well you canít call them a theist because they donít claim to believe in an deity that is engaged in any sense with creation. He simply leans towards the concept of an intelligent creator of some kind but has no thought out understanding of why he thinks that is the case. He is somewhat atheistic in that he canít say for sure whether or not this being exists and doesnít hold any religious beliefs.
I donít understand the objection to using the term agnostic. It certainly seems to fit the definition used in the last sentence of this wiki quote.
quote:
Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of the Supreme Being or deities.[1][2] In popular parlance, or when contrasted with deism, the term often describes the classical conception of God that is found in Monotheism (also referred to as Classical theism) or gods found in polytheistic religions; a belief in God or in gods without the rejection of revelation as is characteristic of deism. [3][4]
Atheism is commonly understood as rejection of theism in the broadest sense of theism, i.e. the rejection of belief in God or gods.[5] The claim that the existence of any deity is unknown or unknowable is agnosticism.[6][7]

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Rrhain, posted 01-25-2018 11:21 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2018 1:06 AM GDR has responded
 Message 366 by Rrhain, posted 01-26-2018 3:02 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13756
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 363 of 414 (827465)
01-26-2018 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by GDR
01-26-2018 12:25 AM


quote:

Well you canít call them a theist because they donít claim to believe in an deity that is engaged in any sense with creation

So we can call him a theist in the general sense, which includes Deists. As your quote says:


Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of the Supreme Being or deities

That broad definition is clearly right.

quote:

I donít understand the objection to using the term agnostic. It certainly seems to fit the definition used in the last sentence of this wiki quote.

The obvious objection is that it doesnít describe the position that youíre asking about. He can be an agnostic as well - provided you allow that atheists can be agnostics too (and a lot of people donít). But it doesnít describe the fact that he believes that there is a god of some sort.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 01-26-2018 12:25 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 01-26-2018 1:59 AM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4368
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 364 of 414 (827466)
01-26-2018 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by PaulK
01-26-2018 1:06 AM


PaulK writes:

So we can call him a theist in the general sense, which includes Deists. As your quote says:

Not really. Here is the definition from merriam webster

quote:
the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe.

He simply believes that life is the result of an intelligent creator. He doesn't believe that this intelligence is to be worshipped or that the intelligence rules in any sense of the word.

He can't be classified as a deist because has no idea whether this intelligence has any interest in this existence or not.

PaulK writes:

Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of the Supreme Being or deities

That broad definition is clearly right.

An intelligent cause for existence does not mean that it has to be considered either a supreme being, nor a deity.

He just doesn't have any beliefs other than the idea that we are more likley to be the result of intelligence rather than the chance collection of mindless particles.

Between the ages of 18 and 36 I considered myself culturally Christian but as far as my actual beliefs were concerned I was agnostic.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2018 1:06 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2018 2:29 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 368 by Rrhain, posted 01-26-2018 3:45 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13756
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 365 of 414 (827467)
01-26-2018 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by GDR
01-26-2018 1:59 AM


quote:

He simply believes that life is the result of an intelligent creator. He doesn't believe that this intelligence is to be worshipped or that the intelligence rules in any sense of the word.

That doesnít mean that he doesnít think that it is a god. Weíre talking very general theism here, not monotheism

Anyway, atheism, theism and agnosticism all relate to belief in God or gods. If you havenít given his view on that then none of those terms are applicable.

So at this stage either he is a theist or you havenít given us the right information.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 01-26-2018 1:59 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6306
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 366 of 414 (827468)
01-26-2018 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by GDR
01-26-2018 12:25 AM


GDR responds to me:

quote:
Well you canít call them a theist because they donít claim to believe in an deity that is engaged in any sense with creation.

Why? Deists are believers. That's the defining characteristic of being a theist: Believing in god. Your own definition says so: "Theism is broadly defined in the existence of the supreme being or deities." There's no indication about what this god is supposed to do or how it is supposed to relate to anything.

Just because your god doesn't want to have anything to do with you (for whatever reason) doesn't mean you don't believe.

He certainly isn't atheistic because he believes in god. That is the defining characteristic of atheism: Lack of belief. If you believe, even if it is nebulous and vague, you aren't an atheist.

quote:
I donít understand the objection to using the term agnostic.

There is a difference between not really knowing what you believe in and not knowing if you believe in the first place or thinking you can never know. I can know that I have feelings for something without really being able to explain them, but that is different from knowing if I have feelings.

With regard to your quote, it has atheism wrong...it isn't a rejection of theism for atheism is the logical base state. It is the burden of those who claim the existence of gods to provide evidence for such. The atheist does not "reject" god but rather has no evidence for god. Instead, theists reject atheism (for what they think are valid reasons). But, we've had this argument on this board many times. I only bring it up because it is a subtle difference.

And that's what we're doing with regard to agnosticism compared to theism. With regard to its definition of agnosticism, it is to my point: Such a person does know that there is "something." They may not know anything about it and be unable to learn anything about it, but they do believe that there is something there to be unknowable. F'rinstance, I can know that you have a toothbrush in your bathroom, but I have no idea what color it is and since it's yours, I'm not going to be in your bathroom, and you're never going to show it to me, I can never know. Thus, I am a believer about your toothbrush. Any agnosticism I have is about its trait, not its existence.

Thus, since they believe in god, even though the target of that belief cannot be readily described, they aren't agnostic.

They're believers. It's why Buddhism is a religion and not just a philosophy. The supernatural aspects can be very vague (to the point of having a very nebulous conceptualization of "god"), but they are still there. There is a difference between having a philosophy of "no attachment" (and I know that Buddhism is so much more than that) and thinking that tenet has some cosmic significance.

Of course, it's sorta like saying at what point does grey become white.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 01-26-2018 12:25 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5569
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 367 of 414 (827469)
01-26-2018 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by GDR
01-25-2018 6:56 PM


GDR writes:

Just a quick question. What would you call someone who believes that there probably is an intelligent cause for our existence, but does not adhere to any specific religion, or even any particular belief in the nature of that intelligence?

A Deist.

He isn't really theistic because he doesn't necessarily believe that this intelligence is at all involved with the world now,

That the definition of a cold deist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

he isn't really a deist because he acknowledges that possibly he/she/it could be involved and he isn't an atheist either.

That's a warm deist.

Wouldn't agnostic fit that person better than any other term. I suggest that there is a lot of people who fall into that category.

These people believe that something created the universe - the only name we have for that is god. They are therefore deists.

There are no agnostics, by definition.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by GDR, posted 01-25-2018 6:56 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6306
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 368 of 414 (827470)
01-26-2018 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by GDR
01-26-2018 1:59 AM


GDR writes:

quote:
Here is the definition from merriam webster

quote:

the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe.

So polytheists who focus on a deity who wasn't the creator/ruler of the universe (say, ancient Athenians) aren't really theists?

quote:
He can't be classified as a deist because has no idea whether this intelligence has any interest in this existence or not.

Does deism require that? And more importantly, does theism?

quote:
An intelligent cause for existence does not mean that it has to be considered either a supreme being, nor a deity.

Unless you're suggesting that the creation of the universe is something that had purely physical origins and can be carried out by a non-supernatural being through physical means, then yeah, it does.

quote:
He just doesn't have any beliefs other than the idea that we are more likley to be the result of intelligence rather than the chance collection of mindless particles.

The Behe Defense? If we don't call it "god," then we can say with a straight face that we don't actually mean "god"? What is this "intelligence"? How does it do what it does? Even if it never interacts with us ever again, was its action upon the universe physical or metaphysical? If the latter, then it's god no matter how much you don't want to be associated with that term.

quote:
Between the ages of 18 and 36 I considered myself culturally Christian but as far as my actual beliefs were concerned I was agnostic.

And most atheists who are raised in Christian nations have this concept to a degree. F'rinstance, atheists celebrate Christmas.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 01-26-2018 1:59 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Stile, posted 01-26-2018 9:33 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3142
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 369 of 414 (827475)
01-26-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Rrhain
01-26-2018 3:45 AM


Rrhain writes:

F'rinstance, atheists celebrate Christmas.

Atheist Christmas is the funnest Christmas!
All the good stuff, none of the boring stuff!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Rrhain, posted 01-26-2018 3:45 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1901
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 370 of 414 (827635)
01-29-2018 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by Stile
01-25-2018 10:55 AM


Re: It's funny
I think I do. It's just that you don't want to answer the question.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Stile, posted 01-25-2018 10:55 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Stile, posted 01-30-2018 10:01 AM Pressie has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1901
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 371 of 414 (827636)
01-29-2018 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Taq
01-25-2018 2:30 PM


Re: It's funny
I don't speak Russian. It's OK when you don't want to answer questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Taq, posted 01-25-2018 2:30 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10659
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 372 of 414 (827644)
01-29-2018 7:39 AM


Two Atheists With Similar Views
George Carlin and Carl Sagan...two atheists with similar views. As a believer, I disagree yet respect their ideas.

GDR writes:

An intelligent cause for existence does not mean that it has to be considered either a supreme being, nor a deity.

He just doesn't have any beliefs other than the idea that we are more likley to be the result of intelligence rather than the chance collection of mindless particles.

Between the ages of 18 and 36 I considered myself culturally Christian but as far as my actual beliefs were concerned I was agnostic.

"He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8"

.....Atheists walk humbly with each other....as humans...yet don't consider God....much as one would not consider a spaghetti monster ambling with them towards the sunset. My only critique of such a philosophy is that it raises humans to a responsible level of being fully responsible for our own survival...which scares me a bit.

Edited by Phat, : added point

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Tangle, posted 01-29-2018 8:14 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 01-29-2018 11:36 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5569
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 373 of 414 (827652)
01-29-2018 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Phat
01-29-2018 7:39 AM


Re: Two Atheists With Similar Views
Phat writes:

Atheists walk humbly with each other as humans....

That sounds like religion speak to me.

yet don't consider God....much as one would not consider a spaghetti monster ambling with them towards the sunset.

That's just bizarre...

My only critique of such a philosophy is that it raises humans to a responsible level of being fully responsible for our own survival...which scares me a bit.

That's not a critique, that's your fear of having to be responsible for yourself. That fear is why gods are invented by people. It explains the whole caboodle.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Phat, posted 01-29-2018 7:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14501
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 374 of 414 (827664)
01-29-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Phat
01-29-2018 7:39 AM


Re: Two Atheists With Similar Views
Phat writes:

My only critique of such a philosophy is that it raises humans to a responsible level of being fully responsible for our own survival...


Noah had to build his own ark.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Phat, posted 01-29-2018 7:39 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Phat, posted 01-29-2018 11:54 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10659
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 375 of 414 (827665)
01-29-2018 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by ringo
01-29-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Two Atheists With Similar Views
ringo writes:

Noah had to build his own ark.

You love that analogy, dont you? Consider that Noah had no idea that it was going to rain, had no particular love of animals that we can see, and was ridiculed for his efforts. He didn't have to do anything! He was simply obeying voices in his head.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 01-29-2018 11:36 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by ringo, posted 01-29-2018 11:59 AM Phat has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
2324
25
262728Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018