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Member Posts: 2574 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
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Author | Topic: Open letter to conservatives | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
But the examples you give of gay marriage and abortion wouldn't affect you even in your own state, But you're just basing that on incredulity, aren't you? Essentially: 'show me that it does affect you or I'll assume that it doesn't', right? I think by the nature of being conservative, we assume that everything is going to have some effect so we're weary of any change in the first place. Probably even more weary of things we just plain don't like. Appealing to a lack of specific examples of effects as an argument that there will be no effects, is not something that a conservative is going to find persuasive. And it sounds like:" Shhh, trust me, everything's gonna be fine, don't worry about it." That sends conservatives the other way, imho. Although, that might work on a drunk chick after a show
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If your state had a referendum on making gay marriage legal, how would you vote? If you really didn't care, then you wouldn't vote, right?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If you really didn't care, then you wouldn't vote, right?
No, it would also be possible to abstain out of a strongly-held principle.
Sure, but what does that have to do with not-voting following from not-caring?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Nuh-uh. I'm right and you're wrong. You should read better.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
It must suck to be conservative. Its not so bad... I'm not broke and uneducated, that's pretty sweet.
Apparently he's pro-choice (even though he used the phrase "murdering a fetus," I think abortion is morally wrong and is "murdering a fetus" but I'm pro-choice.
My question was, how could it affect him if the same things happened in Virginia? Everything that happens in your state has some effect on you.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
What does that have to do with being conservative? or what does that have to do with being able to adjust to change? Heh, nothing really. I was thinking about what would suck, and came up with that. Reading back it looks different than what I was meaning to say.
What about spontaneous abortions or aborting an embryo, before it's even a fetus... how can these be considered murder of a fetus? Well, obviously if its not a fetus then its not murdering a fetus. General blanket statements like that don't ever stand up to scrutiny. Don't mean I won't say it though!
Weird though, at least to me, that you would be pro the choice to comit murder. Ultimately, the life of the fetus does depend on the mother's choices. If she really want to not be pregnant, its not going to help to legally force her to be pregnant. Plus, my opinions on the morallity of the situation are not something to base laws on. We don't really have a legal person here that murder has been commited against. At the end of the day, its better for that choice to be available, even if I don't like the smell of it.
Everything that happens in your state has some effect on you. Give me an example of how 2 gay people signing a piece of paper in your state effects you. Likewise give me an example of how someone having an abortion in your state effects you. I here you saying it but I just don't see how it can. Like I said, you're position is based on incredulity. Now, you have claimed that it would not have an effect, so where's the support for that?
Abortions take place every day, ALL of them without my knowledge. How on earth am I effected by it? You're a part of the culture. As the culture goes through changes in what it feels is okay to do, its inevitable that it will have some affect on you.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Now, you have claimed that it would not have an effect, so where's the support for that? Not exactly,
Message 21:
quote: Message 22:
quote: That's pretty much exactly... You're claiming there's not gonna be an effect. And you're basing it on incredulity because you can't think of what an effect might be. That doesn't mean there isn't gonna be one. Granted, from Message 30:
quote: I claimed (predict) that the same argument for why it doesn't affect you if the person lives in California would be the same argument for why it doesn't concern you if the person lives in your state. But I still haven't gotten the argument as to why it would be different in another state than in your own state (from AE) so I can only predict that it's the same for now. and
You're a part of the culture. As the culture goes through changes in what it feels is okay to do, its inevitable that it will have some affect on you. Ok, but then you'd be against it all together, not just in your state. It's the same culture, minus a few local nuances. I don't think so. The idea is that other states are allowed to go about their business and you and your state are allowed to go about yours. I wouldn't say that the culture of California is the same as, say, Arkansas. If fact, they're quite different. Now, you can zoom out and say the US is one big culture, and try to continue your argument, but that's glossing over the whole point of looking at the states individually and as different cultures with different issues. Likewise, you could zoom in and see differences between various counties and argue for differences there and say the state level is too zoomed out. But this is the United States of America, where we draw the line at the state level and then unite ourselves from there.
But what are the effects? Lets take the Civil Right's movement. It had the effect that now blacks drink from the same water fountain as whites do. Some whites had to "deal with that," right? Another effect was integrated schools, that's something else some whites had to deal with. Now, what would be an example of an effect from same-sex marriage or abortion? Just one example from each.
Abortion: reduction in the personhood attributed to unborn people resulting in less humanity, in general, towards future generations. Gay Marriage: breakdown of traditional family values and/or the standard family unit resulting in less formal and possibly less stable family structures that children rely on for social growth. But I just now made those up off the top of my head, and I don't necessarily totally agree with them, but I'm trying to get across the kinds of things I think other, more strongly, conservative people might think.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
But my over-all point was that there is no reason to not care what happens in Cali because you don't live there, and then care about your own state with social issues like same-sex marriage and abortion, because, the argument for why Cali doesn't effect you/AE is the same argument as to why it happening in his own state won't effect him. I hope that made sense. Yes, I understand. I just don't agree. I am a part of my state and everything that happens here has an effect on me. Things can happen in California that have no effect on me.
Not at all. There is plenty of "country folk" in California and there are plenty of artsy liberals in Arkansas. You're picking the places in California that the media and TV show us, but that's not all of California at all. By a long shot. You get out into the northern part of California and you'll have no idea you're in what you conceptually think of as "California." If they're not at all different then the cultures of California and Arkansas are the same. I can't agree to that so we're approaching an impasse.
Certain issues like abortion, same-sex marriage - just like civil rights and the women's liberation movement - aren't just state issues and effect the nation as a whole. You're assuming that which you're trying to prove.
How does it happening legally in California not have an effect in Virginia, if you are claiming it effects in general all of humanity? Because they're different states with different cultures. If the people of Arkansas need to rely on a more traditional family structure then they'd be affected by gay marriage more than California where homosexuality has already become an accepted part of the culture.
Here again, it would be the breakdown of the entire American family, and not just the breakdown of Virginia families because of their unique culture. Again, you're assuming that when you should be showing that.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If you are really Catholic, Life begins at conception. It’s a person immediately at any temporal point after conception, and is always murder.
The point was that it wasn't a fetus. Before week 9, it is an embryo and not a fetus. So an abortion before week 9 couldn't be murdering a fetus. It was a simple and unimportant point, but it was right. The "point" of conception really isn't a point though. The acrosome reaction is a two stage process that happens over time. As far as being murder, that depends on if we're having a moral or legal discussion... both of which are not the topic of this thread. Simply putting your foot down and declaring personhood after a point of conception doesn't help at all with the discussion of the legality of the situation, although as an unarguable moral declaration it seems to work fine. If you care to read, this thread laid out some interesting information:
Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
From your source: US: $663,255,000,000 Everybody else: $904,013,600,000 The US spends 73% as much as the rest of the world combined. Or, the US spends 42% of the total spending. I'll let you guys argue whether that is "about as much" or not... Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given. Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Yeah, we must have a pretty huge dick
$663,255,000,000 / ( $663,255,000,000+$904,013,600,000) Amount US spends over the total amount spent. The first number was $663,255,000,000 / $904,013,600,000 The amount the US spends over what everybody else does. ABE: I just realize you were mistaken...
That is incredible. Think about that. 73% of what the entire world spends on defence is spent by the US. Including the US in the entire world, that number should be the 42% one. 42% of what the entire world spends on defence is spent by the US. The US spends 73% of what everybody else spends. Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Yes - It is being wangled in my face as we speak. Please take it elsewhere. Kinda makes me wanna change my name to: Dick Wangler
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