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Author Topic:   Is complexity an argument against design?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 76 of 142 (475781)
07-18-2008 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by John 10:10
07-18-2008 9:15 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
Did Jesus tell lies in John 10:27-28 when He said,
I am not sure if Jesus said ANYTHING that is attributed to Him in the Gospels, that He did has to be taken on faith.
If we assume that He did say everything attributed to Him in the Gospels, and if we assume He was not insane, then the only reasonable conclusion is that Jesus lied a lot of the time.
There's also ample evidence that Jesus was a particularly nasty child, He even murdered another child, so perhaps He is not as nice as people would like Him to be.
But, it all depends how we treat the sources, if we are blind unthinking robots then we accept everything at face value, but if we can think for ourselves, and we are truly interested in finding out the truth, then we will have a more critical approach to the sources.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 9:15 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 9:59 AM Brian has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 77 of 142 (475783)
07-18-2008 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by bluescat48
07-18-2008 9:10 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
Your definition of scientific evidence is of no more value than my definition of an afterlife. Science advances based on evidence not speculation. Do chemists still search for the philosopher's stone?
The "so-called" scientific evidence/proof of the ToE is unlike any other scientific evidence/proof that is derived in any other scientific field of study. In any other scientific field of study, results are repeated/verified from start to finish to a high degree of accuracy. When science verifies phenomenon in such manner, these phenomenons can then be called scientific truths or laws. For the ToE, no such results can be repeated/verified from start to finish to a high degree of accuracy because of the billions of years it would take to verify the ToE. As such, the ToE remains "off limits" to true scientific study which produces start-to-finish results that can be accurately verified and repeated time and time again. The ToE's main purpose is but to run and try to hide from our Creator.
If the "so-called" evidence for the ToE can be called verified science, even more so can the knowledge that our universe and life here of earth could only come about through an Intelligent Designer.
Edited by John 10:10, : revised sentence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by bluescat48, posted 07-18-2008 9:10 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by bluescat48, posted 07-18-2008 9:59 AM John 10:10 has replied
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 78 of 142 (475784)
07-18-2008 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Brian
07-18-2008 9:34 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
But, it all depends how we treat the sources, if we are blind unthinking robots then we accept everything at face value, but if we can think for ourselves, and we are truly interested in finding out the truth, then we will have a more critical approach to the sources.
It all depends on knowing the ONE who gives you eternal life.
1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Brian, posted 07-18-2008 9:34 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Brian, posted 07-18-2008 10:23 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 79 of 142 (475785)
07-18-2008 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by John 10:10
07-18-2008 9:52 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
If the "so-called" evidence for the ToE can be called verified science, even more so can the knowledge that our universe and life here of earth could only come about through an Intelligent Designer.
Then state the evidence of intelligent design in someway other than biblical mythology. Show some evidence of ID other than the eye or the bacterial flagellum both that have been refuted.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 9:52 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 10:18 AM bluescat48 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 80 of 142 (475788)
07-18-2008 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by bluescat48
07-18-2008 9:59 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
Then state the evidence of intelligent design in someway other than biblical mythology. Show some evidence of ID other than the eye or the bacterial flagellum both that have been refuted.
The evidence is there to see for those who KNOW our Creator.
For those who do not know our Creator, no evidence will suffice until Heb 11:6 becomes a reality in your life.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by bluescat48, posted 07-18-2008 9:59 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-18-2008 10:26 AM John 10:10 has replied
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 81 of 142 (475789)
07-18-2008 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by John 10:10
07-18-2008 9:59 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
It all depends on knowing the ONE who gives you eternal life.
Believing in the ONE that gives you eternal life depends on your approach to reading the Bible.
As I said, if you blindly accept everything in the Bible at face value then you are a mindless robot.
If you decide that you do not want to go through life like a mindless automaton then a more critical approach to reading the Bible is required, and this is an approach that is much more respectful to the Bible than the literalist approach.
If you think Jesus is going to do anything for you then I suggest you read the Bible again with a more critical eye this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 9:59 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 5:21 PM Brian has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 82 of 142 (475791)
07-18-2008 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by John 10:10
07-18-2008 10:18 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
The evidence is there to see for those who KNOW our Creator.
Splendid. So if you are one of those who "KNOW our Creator", then doubtless you can see this evidence and describe it to those of us less fortunate than yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 10:18 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 5:35 PM Dr Adequate has replied
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 83 of 142 (475830)
07-18-2008 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Brian
07-18-2008 10:23 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
If you think Jesus is going to do anything for you then I suggest you read the Bible again with a more critical eye this time.
Jesus has already done this for me as He declared in John 10:27-28,
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
I'm very sorry you do not hear His voice, nor follow Him, knowing the eternal life He gives to those who love Him and keep His commandments. But just because you don't does not mean that others cannot hear His voice, knowing the eternal life He gives to those who honor Him as Lord.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Brian, posted 07-18-2008 10:23 AM Brian has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 84 of 142 (475831)
07-18-2008 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Dr Adequate
07-18-2008 10:26 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
Splendid. So if you are one of those who "KNOW our Creator", then doubtless you can see this evidence and describe it to those of us less fortunate than yourself.
Maybe you would like to try answering some of the questions the Lord posed to Job in Chapters 38-41?
When Job realized he could not answer the Lord's questions, he humbled himself, repented, and said this in Chapter 42,
1 Then Job answered the LORD and said,
2 "I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
4 'Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.'
5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees You;
6 Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes."
Unless you are willing to receive instruction from the Lord, far be it from me to give you any more.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-18-2008 10:26 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 97 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-19-2008 7:48 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 85 of 142 (475832)
07-18-2008 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by John 10:10
07-18-2008 5:35 PM


A science thread
This is, John TT, a science thread. References to scripture isn't gaining you any ground here.
If you don't wish to seriously discuss this topic then please stop posting here. There will be short suspensions to remind you of this if you continue in this way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 5:35 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 86 of 142 (475833)
07-18-2008 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by John 10:10
07-18-2008 5:35 PM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
When Job realized he could not answer the Lord's questions, he humbled himself, repented, and said this in Chapter 42,
Were these multiple chioce questions or true/false questions?
How much time does the Lord give for each question?
Is it a written or oral test?
Is it open book or do you just have to wing it?
1 Then Job answered the LORD and said,
2 "I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
4 'Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.'
5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees You;
6 Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes."
Was this the masterpiece that was supposed to convince us that you aren't applying any faith to these scriptures?
Unless you are willing to receive instruction from the Lord, far be it from me to give you any more.
Don't be so modest...Oh please, please, please, give us more instructions!
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner and note.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.

This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 87 of 142 (475835)
07-18-2008 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by John 10:10
07-18-2008 10:18 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
The evidence is there to see for those who KNOW our Creator.
For those who do not know our Creator, no evidence will suffice until Heb 11:6 becomes a reality in your life.
For me, who does not believe in a creator, you have done nothing to change my views. You have to show what the evidence is.
Saying it is seen by those who know the creator amounts to as much as one saying goddidit which says nothing.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 10:18 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 142 (475836)
07-18-2008 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Alasdair
02-02-2006 12:48 PM


No Intelligent Design
Alasdair writes:
When you come across a pile of rocks, and pick one of them up, you can quickly see how complex it is. The probability of that rock having formed in that exact shape is astronomically small. It'll be such a complex shape, and would take so many parameters to fully describe it.
On the other hand, you could come across a perfect cube in the rock pile, and infer that it is designed - because it's so simple. You could just use one parameter to describe it (length or width or depth). Doesn't simplicity infer design rather than complexity?
The rock was shaped randomly without intelligent design via natural processes. The only thing complex about the rock is the properties of it such as atoms, etc.
OTO the cube has all of the complexities that the randomly shaped rocks have plus the shape indicative of intelligent design which obviously formed it's intelligently designated shape.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Replies to this message:
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rueh
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 89 of 142 (475844)
07-18-2008 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
07-18-2008 9:22 PM


Re: No Intelligent Design
quote:
OTO the cube has all of the complexities that the randomly shaped rocks have plus the shape indicative of intelligent design which obviously formed it's intelligently designated shape.
What about the previous example of the salt cube? It has a shape indicative of design, but was in fact formed via natural processes. Also
quote:
The rock was shaped randomly without intelligent design via natural processes.
This is contrary to genesis 1:9
And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear."
which would indicate that in fact the rock was formed via God. Which should it be than? God didn't form the rocks, they were formed via gravity? God did form the rocks but that natural processes acted upon them to bring about the shape we see today? God formed the rocks in the exact same form as what we see today and the rest of history is a lie from the devil (aka geologists)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 07-18-2008 9:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 90 of 142 (475845)
07-19-2008 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
07-18-2008 9:22 PM


Re: No Intelligent Design
Hi, Buzz.
Buzsaw writes:
...the cube has all of the complexities that the randomly shaped rocks have plus the shape indicative of intelligent design...
I think the random shape of the rocks is the complexity that Alasdair was referring to, so the cube, in fact, does not have all the complexities of the randomly-shaped rocks.
Have you ever played the game "MouseTrap"? It's this ridiculously confusing contraption that drops a ball that taps a lever that makes a rubber band loosen and dump another ball, and other stuff like that, culminating in a little bell-shaped trap falling down onto the little mouse tokens.
This is a very bad and impractical design: it has way too many parts, and is, in fact, designed to fail at least occasionally, even when it's put together right, just to make the game more interesting. Some kids' marble tracks are the same way: designed to make the marbles bounce throuhg all kinds of weird obstacles before reaching the bottom. They're a pain in the butt to keep running.
Michael Behe's "irreducibly complex" mousetrap with the spring and hammer is a much better and more practical approach to mouse-catching, and it clearly shows the "intelligent" part of "intelligent design."
The human body (and the bodies of other organisms, too) actually show the first type of construction: a convoluted mess of genes that can be alternatively spliced, and all sorts of problems in the knees, the lower back, the hips, the feet, etc. that can happen to you even if you're taking good care of your body. There are people that make careers out of studying a single set of genes that controls how your entire bodyplan is laid out during embryonic development. One weird fluctuation in hormones, and the left side of your face doesn't form. Sometimes, for obscure reasons, the genes just don't do their job: for instance, the pinna of my left ear didn't develop properly, so I have one big Dumbo ear and one Evander Holifield half-ear.
The more parts you add, the more potential problems you create. Simplicity is intelligent, but complexity is nature.

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
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