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Author Topic:   Vestigial Organs?
rockondon
Member (Idle past 4947 days)
Posts: 40
Joined: 03-29-2010


(1)
Message 7 of 109 (554467)
04-08-2010 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CosmicAtheist
04-08-2010 2:14 AM


My first question is regarding vestigial organs. Some creationist argue we have no true vestigial organs because we have a use for things like our tailbone and without it, it would be difficult to digest, walk, etc... Thoughts?
The term 'vestigial' does not mean 'useless' but many creationists pretend it does because thats what liars do. As dwise pointed out, being vestigial means that it has lost its original function through evolution, it doesn't mean 'useless.'
Using your tailbone example, although it serves a minimal purpose now its original function was as part of a tail. We still carry the genes to grow tails incidentally, and humans are born with tails from time to time.
Dwise mentioned the appendix. I've often seen creationists try to portray the appendix as useful since they believe God gave it to them. What's odd is that when people have their appendix removed, they virtually never suffer ill effects from it. When people keep their appendix, they often die when it bursts. If I was to adopt the creationist perspective, I would have to believe that God gave us the appendix because He likes to kill people. Incidentally, the appendix-equivalent in other animals enables them to digest cellulose - that is likely its original purpose that is lost through evolutionary change.
Incidentally, vestigial organs often ARE useless. For example, some species of cave fish and salamanders have sightless eyes and the blind mole rat has a layer of skin covering their eyes rendering them useless.

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rockondon
Member (Idle past 4947 days)
Posts: 40
Joined: 03-29-2010


Message 19 of 109 (554552)
04-08-2010 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by CosmicAtheist
04-08-2010 5:20 PM


This actually got me curious. Where can I read more on humans and tails? Such as studies involving cases where humans were born with true tails?

Here's a research study you might find interesting: [Malformations of the human tail bud or: caudal agenesis syndrome. A review] - PubMed
Abstract
This study presents radiological and clinical findings in 70 patients with aplasia of caudal spinal segments and associated anomalies of the lower extremities and the inner organs. From a functional point of view 5 different types can be classified--unilateral hemi-aplasia, bilateral aplasia with or without sacral plateau, complex malformations of the caudal spine and medial spinal aplasia. Foot deformities and anomalies of the inner organs are common findings regardless to the extent of spinal aplasia, whereas popliteal webbing is only seen in cases with involvement of the lumbar spine. The lack of osseous junction between the spine and the pelvis leeds to a lumbopelvic kyphosis. Additionally the iliac wings are rotated in the frontal plane with the result of a narrow pelvic outlet and a change in the geometry of the hip joints. Embryologically all types of caudal spinal aplasia can be referred to a damage of the human tail bud. However, the term "Syndrome of Caudal Regression" is misleading; with respect to the presented results it is proposed to call this type of spinal malformation "Syndrome of Caudal Aplasia".

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rockondon
Member (Idle past 4947 days)
Posts: 40
Joined: 03-29-2010


Message 23 of 109 (554574)
04-09-2010 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by CosmicAtheist
04-08-2010 11:57 PM


This is very interesting. How exactly do the differentiate from a true tail or pseudotail? And what would cause a pseudotail?
I fear this is only vaguely related to the subject and I prefer to stay on topic.
(in other words, I have no idea what the answers are to your questions )

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rockondon
Member (Idle past 4947 days)
Posts: 40
Joined: 03-29-2010


Message 29 of 109 (554663)
04-09-2010 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Jack
04-09-2010 4:49 AM


Hi Mr Jack,
By your definition, the bones of the ear are vestigial jaws, birds wings are vestigial legs, legs themselves are vestigial fins, and so on - that's not right.
When a structure that was originally used for one purpose is modified for a new one, that's called an exaptation.
The distinction between a vestigial structure and an exaptation is sometimes vague, but generally speaking if the structure has a substantial new function and purpose, it should be considered an exaptation, not vestigial.

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rockondon
Member (Idle past 4947 days)
Posts: 40
Joined: 03-29-2010


(1)
Message 49 of 109 (555139)
04-12-2010 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
04-09-2010 5:00 PM


it is easily enough explained in terms of the disease and death that the Fall brought into the world
'The Fall' is a bizarre story about an incompetent god who creates faulty humans then blames them for His mistakes. He creates a tree of knowledge for no other apparent reason then to punish people for eatting from it and the theme of punishing people for acquiring knowledge seems to be a common trend in Christianity. Using The Fall as an excuse for the mistakes in 'design' is an apologetic attempt to deny your god's incompetence by portraying him as malevalent instead. I imagine that it brings little comfort to think that God does stupid things on purpose instead of accidentally.
Vestigial structures make perfect sense in light of evolution and are great evidence of evolution. Seeing people argue that God purposely creates stupid things that often result in horrifying death and disease just goes to show the absurdity that people will go to in order to maintain absurd beliefs. If God did exist, He would surely be revolted by creationists who portray Him so monstrously, and would likely hold evolutionists in high regard for being honest and objective enough to pursue an honest understanding of His creation.

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