What constitutes matters of Brotherhood and Fellowship?

Hi EMA, Do you have any idea what Premillennialism is?Pre means before.Millennialism millenniam means 1000 years.So Premillennialism is the doctrine that Jesus will return in the air and the Church is caught out, disciples judged according to their works and rewarded accordingly and the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ spoken of in the book of Revelation which begins when Jesus puts His feet in the same place He left from.Maybe when we get through with this discussion we could study Premillennialism.God Bless,Edited by ICANT, : remove smiley

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Before, I said Consider the fact that you may be wrong on the doctrine of P. That being the case I may be here to direct you to material (not myself)and knowledge that will perfect your already magnificent skills in relating Gods word Dont you and I already hold a position of the 1000 year reign of Christ? Do me a favor and give the debate a chance, while we are discussing these matters. I have no problem discussing any of these issues as far and as much as you want, but atleast review and absorb the flavor of what is being said in that discussion. Are you familiar with any of the anti-P arguments? If the parable is to be understood literally in relation tothatevent, then I agree with you. How could I disagree. I have nothing to compare it against and that constitues my following commentsIf we examine each parable, notjust concerning punishment, might we be able to come to and develope theories that seem to fit other ideas or ideologies? here ismy initial problemtothis approach,besides the one already advanced (P could be wrong). No one else seems to be aware of this intermediate state of existence. Paul in all his lettersnever speaks about it nor does he refernce it.Secondly and more importantly, Revelations is a book of metaphors, figures, illustrations, apocraphal images and language, why should we considr the number 1000 to be literal in such circumstances, when we have nothing to compare it against except more figurative and desriptive numbers, in the scriptures. IOW, if there were someother writer that had referenced this period of grace and punishment, we could say with certainty, yes this is what the parable means. Also, this is a pretty big idea, this intermidiate state of existene
I believe the bible isall truth as you do, and there is no reason to suggest that the Bible is untuthful when it says he killed 1000 philistines with jawbone, but wouldit be lying to say that this number is descriptive of a large numberbut necessarily 1000 exacally. These peopleput alot of significance in numbers, especially rounded of numbers, correct? You may be right I have nothing to compare it against , except for the fact that the P doctrine teaches that Christ has not yet established his kingdom, which is incorrect.Me YouwillBut isnt that what the passages is referencing, punishment?Anyone who does not see that the eternal age does not commence immediately after the second coming of Christ will have difficulty understanding temporary reward and temporary discipline administered to the saved children of God.
My concern iswhy these principles cannot apply here and now Understood, I did not take it that way. Thanks alsofor the exhortation.It certainly would have helped if he would made it cleaer that this is the age he is refering to in these contexts. I see your points clearly, but I am not sure your are not simply reading into the passages what you want to see. great. Its why I read what you writeMe YouYes sir. Not unconvinced as much as I am convinced that numbers hold a specialmeaning in scripture that they do otherwise. consider the following on Armegedon Dave Miller, A.P.Press
The whole article here
Will There be an Armageddon? - Apologetics Press Let me know what you think In a way I hope you are right, but which passage should be taken literally John 14Please continue with your passages you suggested.EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Certainly, but this has nothing to do with whether baptism is a part of he New covenant and whether it is necessary for salvation. You are ixing up two different ideas I agree with all of this AND MORE. Its a common practice of the Baptist or calvanist to isolate one verse of scripture, and say something like, "Well see that all the scriptures has to say about being or becoming a child of God, Just believe", when in fact jesus himself said, one must "be baptized, "to be saved". Those are not my words, they are his, so lets examine all he has to say, not just parts.Is it true Jesus said this in mark 16:16, Yes or No? The promise of the holy spirit was made to the Apostles. Go to jeruselum where you will reieve power from on high. he was not speaking to the entire clan of believers at that time, nor did the other desciples recieve that gift at that time. You are reading past what is actually stated in Acts chapter oneActs 1. Notice the words THEM and THEY in this passageNowhere in verses 12-26, does it say that the 120 disciples recieved the Holy Spirit baptism. read carefully [qs]Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey. 13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication,[b] with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
Matthias Chosen15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples[c] (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 For it is written in the Book of Psalms:‘ Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;[d]and,‘ Let[e]another take his office.’[f]21 Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.[/qs]Now look at the verbage of Chapter two as to who recieved the Holy Spirit baptism on this occasionActs 2 [qs]When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"13Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine.[b]"Peter Addresses the Crowd
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'[c] [/qs]The promise was made earlier to the Apostles, then it says, "Then peter stood up with the eleven", a clear reference to who was endowed on this occasion because he says he will guide them into all truth. On pentecost Peter provided the new covenant method for all time to the end of the age for how we are to preach the gospel to the nations [qs]Saul realized this was a powerful entity as said "who art thou Lord". Again ICANT you are reading into the scriptures what you want to see. While admirable, it is misguded.You have Jesus saying something in this passage, that he did not say in another, namely mark 16:16. Jesus did not tell Paul he was saved on the road to Damascus, you have read that into the Passage. In fact, he was told to go to a certain place where it WOULD BE TOLD HIM WHAT HE NEEDED TO DO.In that place Annanias repeated jesus' words in Mark 16:16. Athis point we can have confidence that the messenger correctly relayed what Jesus wanted him to do to be saved."Why do you wait, arise be baptized and wash away your sins" This corresponds correctly with both mark 16:16 and acts 2:38. imagine that True but he hadnt obyed the gospel yet.EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Sounds good, feel free to jump in with me and jaywill, but lets try and keep it in Jaywills present scope

Hi EMA, But it has everything to do with the way of Jesus. There are many places where Jesus said follow me.Here He was talking to the people when He said follow me.To follow Jesus you would have to be a son of God prior to being baptized. Since He was the Son of God prior to being baptized. But Jesus did not say you must be baptized to be saved.Jesus made a declarative statement declaring a fact. Jesus stated a person who had believed and been baptized would be saved.Jesus stated any person that had not believed would be damned.He nowhere stated that a person who had not been baptized would be damned.In fact there is no such statement in the Bible.If you have a verse that makes that statement please present it. If as you suggest the holy spirit was given to those that heard Jesus voice prior to His departure only Peter, James and John was the only ones that received the holy spirit.Those three were the only ones on the mount with Jesus at His departure.If the all included the other apostles including the one elected after they came down from the mount, why did it not include all the people in the room. It says all in the room received the Holy Spirit.Lets look at another instant of people receiving the Holy Spirit. Peter preached the word.Peter told them that everyone that believed would receive remission of sins.At that point the Holy Spirit came on all those who believed and they began to speak with other tongues magnifying God.These people had become sons and daughters of GodPeter then asked premission of those who had come with him from Joppa to baptize them.Then he commanded that they be baptized in the name of the Lord.God's order.Peter preached the word.
The people heard the word.
The people believed.
The people received the Holy Spirit.
Peter asked for permission to baptize the believers.
The assembly that came with Peter from Joppa agreed.
They were then baptized. So you as catholics believe that Peter started the church on the day of Pentecost. As you believe Peter set the rules of a covenent.That means Jesus lied when He said: "I will build my church". He had not obeyed the gospel of EMA.But he had obeyed the gospel found: He had obeyed the gospel Jesus gave to Nicodemus. There is no record of this man being baptized but there is a record that he provided a hundred pounds of spices for Jesus body after his death.Saul had also obeyed the gospel Peter preached to Cornelius and those in his house.When did Saul receive eternal life?Was it before his baptism or after?When did Cornelius receive eternal life?Was it before his baptism or after?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

ICANT's little review of Christ returning before the millennial kingdom (Pre- Millennial), I am convinced, is the right view. LOL.Please, just count these "magnificent skills" as mere fellowship between lovers of the word of God, nothing more. From what I can gather below you may question how literally the number 1,000 should be taken. I think it is adaquate to recognize that following Christ's second coming He will shepherd the remaining nations with strong administrative power. He will shepherd them with a rod of iron as the pots are shattered into pieces (Rev. 19:15). Some of His overcoming saints will be rewarded with being co-kings to reign with Him to do this (Rev.2:27)This should last 1,000 years and is part of the rewards given to His people when the kingdoms of this world become those of the Lord and of His Christ: "And the seventh angel trumpeted; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever... And the nations were angry, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give reward to Your slaves the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Your name ..." (See Rev. 11:15-18)The positive aspects of these rewards are administered before the reigning period begins or at the very beginning. The negative aspects are also determined by the Lord at the commencement of the reigning period.What the Christian's position and experience will be during those thousand years is determined by the rewarding or disciplining Christ at His judgment seat before He descends to the earth and commences that 1,000 year reign.This can be proved latter if you need proof. I have a very good article on the history of the doctrine of Millennialism. But I would have to review that article. The examination of the Christians should happen in the air after the saints are all raptured to His Parousia. He hovers close to the earth concealed in a cloud. In this pavillion of His hidden presence He will set up His judgment seat of Christ.The outcome of that judgment is determined in the air before He descends upon the earth. Those who are rewarded as overcomers will accompany Him at Armegeddon to be His army. This is like Gideon's small army of 300 in the book of Judges.I believe that the destinies during the millennial kingdom will also be determined in this examination before Christ descends, conquers the Antichrist, and establishes His throne of glory in Jerusalem to commence the millennial 1,000 year reign.To be with the Lord in that reigning is to be in the sphere of His glory. To be excluded from it will be an "outer darkness" - outside the sphere and realm of Christ's glorious and bright reign on the earth.I have no idea where the punished believers will be. Whether on the earth or in Heaven ... ? I simply do not know. But I do know that this discipline is something we Christians should want to avoid. So by His grace we need to overcome and be more than conquerors as it is normal that we should be through Him.Those rewarded are not above the standard. They are merely AT the standard. Those saints who are rewarded are not superspiritual. They are merely normal according to the sufficient supply of the grace of Christ.The unforgiving servant in Matthew 18 will come before the judgment seat of Christ in the air, and there the appropriate discipline will be administered by Christ.I am not clear whether his discipline is for the entire 1,000 years or only some portion of it. We are bby no means left with shadowing parables. The plain teaching of the New Testament confirms the parable's proper interpretation.For example: "For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad." (2 Cor. 5:10)1.) "We" means all believers, including Paul. We saved and redeemed saints of Jesus will be at that judgment seat of Christ.2.)"We MUST" - It is mandatory. There are no excuses. It is a must. No Christian will be excused from this judgment seat evaluation. (I can see no exceptions).3.) We Christians all must "be manifest" before Him at that time. The secrets of our hearts will be manifest. Nothing will be hidden. We will be exposed in His light - manifested - what we really are within.4.) It is before the bema of Christ. This is an examination bar. A bema seat of examination.5.) We must all appear there "that each may receive the things done through the body" .What our lips uttered, where our feet walked, what our ears listened to, what our mouth uttered, what our hands handled ... all these are the things done in the body. That is from the time we became believers in Jesus Christ to what did we present the members of our body?We will receive as a recompense those things. If we were strict with others by loose on ourselves, we can expect the Lord to be strict with us. If we were strict with ourselves but merciful to others, we may expect that He will be merciful with us.6.) "According to what he has practiced ...". This should be about life style, habit, practice ... what was the believer's custom of living ? What was her routine and practice.7.) The things received ... whether good or bad. It is not only the good things to be rewarded. In some cases it will be the bad things rewarded negatively.Here in 2 Corinthians 4:10 we have plain teaching to confirm the parables. The next passage proves that we Christians should like Paul have a sober fear being found wanting on that day: "Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men ..." (v.11) The unforgiving servant should also have had a fear of the Lord. How could he expect to be mean towards his fellow Christians and the Lord not take note of it?Did he assume that he had his "ticket" to heaven and it did not matter how he lived as a Christian ? If so this was unwise. Even Paul, such a mature apostle said they were aware of the fear of the Lord. Intermediate state, I do not think is an issue here.This judgment seat of Christ should be conducted on the resurrected saints.I do have some unknowns about the resurrection body and the possibility of discipline from the Lord. But I do notice that in speaking of resurrection Paul talks about different degrees of glory in First Corinthians 15.At any rate the soberness of both the parables and the plain teaching should clue us. Resurrection and glorification of our bodies will not stop Christ from conducting His judgment seat. It would be foolish to assume that somehow He is locked into a procedure that hinders Him from fulfilling His word.This is not something occuring to departed saints in some intermediate state. This judgment seat is upon the resurrected and raptured. If one is bothered by the actual mention of 1,000 years I think that this is minor. If Jesus will shepherd the nations it means them He will administer guidance to them as the need arises. He uses His strong "iron rod" to get them in line. I see all of this as taking some time.And passages about the Messianic kingdom like those in Isaiah 11 suggest an extended period of time. For Revelation to mention thousand six times also may emphatically indicate that He is serious about the time length.It was not one fanciful and casual poetic mention. It was six mentions. We are safe to regard thousand years as at least a thousand years. I see not as grace and punishment so much as grace and kingdom. The former is the reality of the kingdom but in a hidden way before God's eyes. The latter is a manifestation of that kingdom. How one lived in the reality with a secret sincerity before God's eyes is then openly manifested and rewarded.A positive reward will be to enter into the joy of the Lord to co-reign with Him. A negative reward will be to have to make up lessons neglected during the church age.The flavor will be different.Consider First John 2:28: "And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from before Him at His coming" (1 John 2:28) Here it is not a matter of merely FEELING ashamed. It is a matter of being PUT TO SHAME. If we practice to abide in Him we will have boldness for His is our life. When Christ our life shall appear we shall also appear with Him in glory. But if we do not practrice to abide in Him, we suffer the danger of being PUT TO SHAME from Him at His coming.To be cast into the "outer darkness" is not eternal damnation. But it is being put to shame from Him at His coming.His coming should indicate the end of the church age.I am going to stop here. There are too many aspects to touch in one post. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think you did a pretty good job in grabbing ahold of , not to mention, "touching" some of these things. This will take some tiime to digest and formulate a coherent response. land sakes alive and good graveSee you in a whileEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Ok I'll take another approach.We have no hcoice but to use logic to analyse a biblical text. Even if we have no basis in logic, we will still be doing it uncounsciously. Now since we have no choice, the question then becomes are we using correct logic ? We must do everything in our capabilities to analyze a text the most truthfully possible, and this requires us to have correct logic and be able to avoid logical fallacies.What I was saying is that Marc 16:16 cannot be used to prove that baptism is required for salavation, because doing so involves Denying the antecedent, a fallacy. This makes it a bad interpretation of the text.What I'm trying to say, is that Marc 16-16 by it's logical structure is not conclusive enough to prove the statement ''baptism is required for salvation''. See next postAbE I'll have to come back to this later. Maybe I miss the correct terminology in english, but I used conditions in the sense that they are the two parts of a conditional statement ''if p&r, then q''. Not in the sense ''only if P&R, then Q'' which would be required for your affirmation to hold true.Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

Never mind.I erase this whole post.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Jaywill was this post directed twords me, Im sorry I missed it and I wanted to apologize to you and ICANT, I get wrapped up in life, work and home stuff I cant seem to break away to complete the posts I want to. Ill get back to yiour most recent post this evening if all goes well. Dont mean to keep apologizing, just dont want you to think i have abandoned my responsibilities.In the meatime, this blonde rushes into the store out of breath and proclaims, does anyone have a way to get into a car Ive locked my keys inside it. the store person says CLAM DOWN lady, Ihave a device for just such an occasion and hands her a hanger. In a few minutes he goes out to check on her progress and she says Im not having any luck bec ause I keep missing the key hole AND MY TWIN SISTER INSIDE IS RUNNING OUT OF AIR.When I told this to my wife she said, you think thats funny dont you and I said, well if its ok , YES.. She is not blonde but is the spitting image of Jane Russell and Im always telling her you can believe anything and think anything you want sweetie, just keep looking like jane and Ill believe anything you tell me.See you this evening, I hopeEAM

It is used 80 somthing times in the Old and 10 in the New. I cant think of one instance where it is to be taken literal, can youIf 1000 is to be taken figuratively, then perhaps much of the rest of the verbage should be considered figurative true but does it say this rule will be on earth, since all authority in heaven and earth has already been given him But isnt Christ already reigning You may proceed with this if you wish, but look at the following words in this passage and tell me if you see literalism in these words or do you see something trying to be taught through imagiary and pictorial language . Now dont get me wrong Jaywill, I believe what is written, but to its actual application, i do not see a literalismRev 19 :11 "And I saw (AK)heaven opened, and behold, a (AL)white horse, and He who sat on it is called (AM)Faithful and True, and in (AN)righteousness He judges and wages war.
12His (AO)eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many (AP)diadems; and He has a (AQ)name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.13He is clothed with a (AR)robe dipped in blood, and His name is called (AS)The Word of God.14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in (AT)fine linen, (AU)white and clean, were following Him on white horses.15(AV)From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that (AW)with it He may strike down the nations, and He will (AX)rule them with a rod of iron; and (AY)He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.16And on His robe and on His thigh He has (AZ)a name written, "(BA)KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to (BB)all the birds which fly in (BC)midheaven, "(BD)Come, assemble for the great supper of God,18so that you may (BE)eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of [a]commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, (BF)both free men and slaves, and (BG)small and great."19And I saw (BH)the beast and (BI)the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who (BJ)sat on the horse and against His army.20And the beast was seized, and with him the (BK)false prophet who (BL)performed the signs (BM)in his presence, by which he (BN)deceived those who had received the (BO)mark of the beast and those who (BP)worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the (BQ)lake of (BR)fire which burns with brimstone.
21And the rest were killed with the sword which (BS)came from the mouth of Him who (BT)sat on the horse, and (BU)all the birds were filled with their flesh. ""The sword that came from the mouth of him that sat on the horse". I dont think this was to be taken literally JaywillAlso, Look closely at verses 17 and 18Could not the same be said for chapters 20 and 21. definatley a second coming but how and where?Now I am not contending with you thoughs on how Christians should conduct themselves or Gods judgement, but can or should we take all or what we want in the passages as literal, or should we let them speak to principles and be satisfied with thatNow dont get me wrong, I hope you are correct and indeed you may be, that God has a great latitude, no one needs a greater latitude than i do, even as a Christian But the plain and simple language that is neither steeped in symbolism or parable, seems to suggest otherwiseKeeping in line with the thread however and as the Threadmaster (I like saying that, "threadmaster"), I certainly do not make the doctrine of P a matter of fellowship. Simply because there may indeed be some ambiguity concerning what will happen in end timesEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Hi EMA, I will try to shed a little light on the subject. The devil is to be bound in the lake of fire for a thousand years.After the thousand years is up he must be loosed for a litle season.Those who have been judged will reign with Jesus a thousand years.The rest of the dead shall live not until the thousand years is up.You ask where this reign will take place. Well when the devil is loosed he will go into the four quarters of the earth to deceive the nations.That should tell you the reign will be on earth.A king must have a physical kingdom to reign over. At the moment the devil is still king of the earth this is his domain.The only thing that Christ rules over today is His Church. And He is having a hard job doing that as most of them have kicked Him out and He is standing outside knocking on the door trying to get in. This was written to the church at Laodicea. If you will remove the s from sword you will have the instrument Jesus will use to kill the people with. Jesus spoke man into existence in Genesis 1:27. He will speak and all mankind who are gathered to this battel will die. You got a problem with an angel standing in the air between John and the sun?I got no problem with an angel standing on the sun or anywhere else he would want to stand. He is not human.You got a problem with the fowls of the air doing their job?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

In the case of Revelation 20 I take it to mean at least 1,000 years. Six mentions in one chapter are hard to disregard as a triviality.And while it is plain that the Revelation was made known to John "by signs" (Rev. 1:1) trivializing the entire chapter because "a thousand years" may be approximate does not make sense to me. My point here is "Let's not argue over how many years. It should take some time to shepherd the nations on the earth to get them in line."Concerning a "general" indication of a extended number of years you respond: See Revelation 5:10 - "And have made them a kingdom and priest to our God; and they shall reign on the earth"And perhaps someone argued that because of future promise to reign Jesus does not presently reign in those who let Him, or have a kingdom. That is definitely not my argument.In the normal church life Paul says that the kingdom IS righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Rom 14:17). Since Paul says that the kingdom IS rather than the kingdom WILL BE, it is evident that Christ can reign in us today.An expectation for Christ to reign in the future is not a call to suspend His reigning in us today. Yesterday, I got into an argument with a couple of policemen and a tow truck driver because my son's car was parked on the street with expired tags. I did not want to pay the $150 to get the car out of tow and put up on my private driveway.During that heated argument, I fell out from under the reign of Jesus. I did not have righteoueness. I did not have peace. I did not have joy in the Holy Spirit.But afterwards, I prayed and repented to the Lord because I was in the wrong. I applied His precious blood. And I was again in the kingdom, under His reign in which there IS righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.This is not a doctrinal matter to me as much as an experiential one. Yes, in priniciple, we need to be under Christ's reign in our daily Christian life. And we also should be reigning in life (Rom. 5:17). The bottom line here is that of course I am advocating that because Jesus reigns in the millennium we should postpone His reigning today. Sometimes I may. I am learning not to. I think one needs to have wisdom to understand what should be taken more literally and what should be taken more symbolically.I do not say that it is easy. I do not say that we should lean to one extreme or the opposite extreme.The Bible interprets itself. By examining other similar portions of the word of God we can get help.No, I do not believe that Revelation says that Jesus is a little fourfooted lamb with wool and a little tail. The Lamb is obviously a symbol of the Redeeming Savior.I take a resurrection of those beheaded for Jesus as literal. I take their reigning with Him as co-kings literally. I will not fight with anyone whether that is 1,000 years or 743 years.I take it as at least a thousand years. It is fine with me if another brother takes it to mean just some years. You lost me. There are only 15 verses in chapter 20. Generally speaking, it requires some time, patience, skill, prayer, and fellowship with others of greater experience, to understand a book like Revelation.What part should be seen as symbolic and what part should be taken literally requires much time and experience. And we should be willing to learn from others who have gone before.AND, just because teacher was incorrect on one point does not mean the that teacher had nothing benefitial to the study.We should prove all things and hold fast to what is good. I would not expect that everything I write on the Bible will be helpful. James said the teachers all make mistakes.Brother, my opinion is that "thousands years" can be safely assumed to mean an extended period of time. I think the Holy Spirit means at least a thousand years. I could be wrong.This is a period of restoration. It is called "the regeneration". You know a thousand years to the Lord is like one day. So if the marriage feast is followed by a honeymoon, Christ and His Bride have that for(spiritually speaking" one day. And that certainly could be a thousand year celebration.This is a reward not only to the New Testament overcomers. It is also a reward to the Old Testament overcomers as well.I expect it to be the experience of a remnant of OT and NT saints.In the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, the foolish had to go and purchase oil. When they did so the marriage feast was in progress and they were excluded.Now, listen. It does not say that they perished forever. The oil should represent the Holy Spirit. And if they have the Holy Spirit it seems not right to understand that they go to eternal perdition. It is reasonable to understand that they gained the Holy Spirit (the extra oil) in a late fashion. So they were LATE in obtaining what was needed earlier as the wise virgins had done.The feast was in progress. And they were disciplined by being left out of the feast. Now this could mean that during the millennial kingdom some saints are excluded because what was required was not obtained in a timely fashion.I do not expound the whole parable in this post. But it should be noted that ALL of the virgins had oil to begin with. The WISE virgins had extra oil in thier vessel along with their lamps. The FOOLISH virgins had only the oil in their lamps.The vessel with the lamp probably means the soul or personality. The lamp of the Lord is the human spirit. In brief, the parable shows that some had the born against experience, but were FOOLISH to not allow the Holy Spirit to move out into their personality, their soul.Five is the number representing responsibility. Five foolish and five wise does not mean half of the saints are foolish and half are wise. Rather it means that the responsibility of whether we will be wise or foolish rests with us.But anyway, the foolish came with what was needed LATE. And they were left out of the celebration. Accordingly, I expect that some people who are saved will FOOLISHLY neglecet to have Jesus really sanctify their personalities.May you and I not be among the foolish, by His mercy.I see you are very busy. Do not feel pressed to respond me immediately. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Ya, it has to do with law enforcement officals and things of that sort. You see because, that , the um, well you know, because what i said was, if you think about it. Noooo, Im just kidding of course, just a little shot thereI was in Law Enforcement for a while. Never get in a heated argument, because they immediately see it as a challenge to their authority, the subject becomes of no consequense or importanceNow on the other hand Good citizenship should be understood and recognized. In those days when i was in law enforcement after running someones background and found them to be lawabiding, I would simply walked up to you and have said, "get this fixed before the end of next week and I wont give you a citation."Citzenship needs to be recognized, and rewarded. some people are simply to zealous This is the most important thing you have said here amoung all the other wonderful thoughts We started this conversation concering punishment, moved to P. This is what I meant earlier when I said we should be very careful about what we want to see in the parables. If one tends to support your position, you endorse it. If it seems to renounce what you believe about punishment, you quickly move to explain and justify it in some other fashion, as above.I again however am more interested in your wisdom concering the symbols that you present in the parable, as the Holy Spirit being the oil, etc. I try and gather that rather than some insignificant pointBut in truth it could mean shut out forever. Your latitude concerning God is admirable, but may be misguided, if we consider the CONSEQUENCES and what is behind, WILLFULL DISOBEDIENCE, even as children. Dog returning to its own vomit, pig back to its own filth, etc. Becareful with your conclusions No no, verses 17 and 18 of chapter 19, rocket scientist, ha ha So do I jaywill and these lessons taught in this symbolism are much more important that certain details and aspects of the book. please dont assume I mean to trivialize those more important points.The Christians were suffering terribly at this time, apicture or representation of those that had suffered, BEING and REIGING with Christ, needed to be understood by those going through this unspeakable horror.Ironically we should PROBABLY be speaking about those children of God at that time and what they were actually enduring, instead of some specific at details concerning times, dates and methods, which we are not even certainl about even with the information we do have So could I. My point here is that all of this could simply be symbolic of Gods (Christs)rule, authority and plans. Consider this, is it necessary to ACTUALLY believe that Satan will or was literally changed in a pool of oil and fire to restrain his influence. Or should it simply be understood to mean that he will be controlled or dealt with accordingly. maybe it is just symbolism to assist the suffering saints in understanding that their SUFFERING will come to end SHORTLY.Since he is already King of Kings, Lord of Lords and he ALREADY sits on the Throne of David, maybe revelations is symbolism to represent these already in place principles. just maybeREV 19 (THATS NINETEEN, HA HA )We understand this to Mean Rome as the beast, the Emperor as the false prophet, because he declared himself deity and both were persecuting the children of God. God would bring it to an end SHORTLY, a key word in Revelations.Apossible explanation in context of symbolism Again let me reinforce that while I personally believe the 1000 to be by all means figurative, I am not making that my sole argument for the figurative nature of the references themself. Simply to much of the subject is steeped in symbolism to be for example, taken as literal.Since Christ is already Lord of Lords and king of Kings and he already sits on Davids throne, there is simply no reason to believe that this should be taken as a literal reign in and on earth.One would only be trivilizing the book if they do not understand the purpose for which it was written in the first place. John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos. had John wrote plainly what he wanted to say, the Roman authorities would have immediatley seized his correspondences, as subversive, given the fact that the theme of the book was the Roman gvoernment.But if the book were written code and symbolism, they would have thought him mad and possibly let the recipients of the letter have it anyway. Then there was the gift of INTERPRETATION given by the Holy Spirit to those heaers, that they would understand its meaningThe themes in the book are plain and simple. God is in control, Christ will and DOES reign, the saints will reign with him, they are already reigning presently with him. God will put an end to the beast and the false Prophet causing the present suffering, Rome and the emperorIn this connection, what do you believe and where do you believe the disembodied spirits are presently? What is their status.More in a minute, Im still reeling from ICANTS, "Do you have a problem with the birds doing their Job". Your a funny guy ICANTBut more importantly you must respect him for the following words EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.