Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,389 Year: 3,646/9,624 Month: 517/974 Week: 130/276 Day: 4/23 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Easy proof for Inteligent Design
Phage0070
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 5 of 213 (555698)
04-15-2010 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by MrQ
04-13-2010 6:15 PM


Fundamentally what you are talking about is the ancient question: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
I view reality as completely separate from the mind; that is to say, a tree can fall without being observed and still make a sound. In addition, two observers could agree that a tree fell and made a sound, *and be wrong*. In a way you could define reality as that which would occur regardless of observation or understanding. This is due to the observation that minds can be mistaken about reality, and that unexpected and unknown events can occur that later interact with those minds. I realize of course this can be explained away if we presuppose some omni-mind, but that wouldn’t be justified at this point.
You talk about necessary truths that must be true in all possible worlds at all times. I don’t agree that this is an accurate assumption for a variety of reasons. I could point out concepts like a Bose-Einstein Condensate or quantum entanglement that blur the lines between when objects are distinct or not, but that would just muddle the issue. In the end, when a philosopher says that a truth is necessary they are saying I don’t understand how it could be otherwise. It is an argument from ignorance, and is invalid.
For example, picture a reality where 1+1=3, where A = ~A; can you do it? Does it make sense? Well too bad, it is real! Perhaps if you were smarter (or less sane) you would be able to picture such a reality, but your ability to understand such a thing has no bearing on it being real.
Now about your second point; Yes, the abstract process of counting and the assignment of numbers is based on the mind. However you provide no compelling argument that such assignments are necessary for the functioning of such a reality. In fact the abstract concept you envision has no manifestation in the reality whatsoever; that cube and ball are actually made up of the field interactions of subatomic particles and on the atomic level are lumpy, jittery, hazy zones of probability that are nothing like you envisioned. To suggest your concept of a cube is at all required for those atomic structures to take a form you would identify as a cube is lunacy.
Abstract concepts don’t require physical reality to exist. But then again, they don’t really exist in the strict sense of the word. To conflate the two concepts is a gross misuse of terminology.
Now for your last point: The laws of physics are not based on mathematics. Logic and mathematics are based on observations of reality, the descriptions of which are termed the laws of physics. Before we had any understanding of logic, mathematics, or physics, the universe functioned just the same. To claim that a mind was necessary for reality to exist is begging the question.
It is also completely untrue that every atheist accepts that there should be at least a single originator or uncaused cause. I for one disagree, because while all of our evidence points toward an origin for our reality, I have no basis for concluding that the behavior we have observed of our reality must necessarily hold true for its origin. For instance time itself is theorized to have come into existence in the origin event, so there is no reason to expect that before that event has any validity whatsoever. As cause and effect also require time to be meaningful, we cannot assume such things were required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by MrQ, posted 04-13-2010 6:15 PM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by MrQ, posted 04-15-2010 5:50 AM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 213 (555720)
04-15-2010 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by MrQ
04-15-2010 5:50 AM


MrQ writes:
With no mind, everything would be just a bunch of mass or energy randomly scattered. Any relationship between them or between fundamental forces have no meaning.
You seem to be claiming that if there were no minds that the fundamental forces of the universe would cease to function; matter, space, and time would cease to be. You don't only say that their interactions would be void of "meaning", something which is certainly assigned by the mind, but also that those interactions would cease to take place.
Basically you believe that if you were the only mind in the universe, if you went to sleep the universe would cease to be.
I posit that such a position is raving lunacy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by MrQ, posted 04-15-2010 5:50 AM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by MrQ, posted 04-15-2010 6:23 AM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 213 (555726)
04-15-2010 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by MrQ
04-15-2010 6:23 AM


MrQ writes:
Having no meaning doesn't necessary mean ceasing existence. I don't know how did you come up with that?! There can be scattered random forces and energy and matter. But all are have no meaning. The point is they have to be random and true random!
No. The cube and sphere of matter are held together by the four basic physical forces: gravitational, electromagnetic, strong, and weak forces. These forces, not our conceptual image of the object, govern their interaction and continued orientation and structure.
These forces are not random, as proven by extensive observation. They do not change function based on if people are thinking about them or not, and they do not exist contingent on the existence of a mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by MrQ, posted 04-15-2010 6:23 AM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by MrQ, posted 04-15-2010 6:43 AM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024