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Author Topic:   Star formation
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 16 of 39 (556430)
04-19-2010 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Peg
04-19-2010 8:03 PM


the fact is that matter is produced by energy and energy does not create itself....if it did we wouldnt need power-plants.
FALSE.
Completely false.
Matter is not produced by energy.
Neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed.
Energy and matter are finite, and there is exactly the same amount of the two today as there was yesterday, 100 years ago, a million years ago, a billion years ago, all the way back to T=0. They simply change from one form into another - neither is ever created, neither is destroyed. One does not "produce" the other, except in the same way that light from the Sun "produces" heat, or ice "produces" water.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 17 of 39 (556435)
04-19-2010 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Peg
04-19-2010 8:03 PM


you can read the verse however you like
How many alternate reading can you suggest that disagree with hooah's, though? Remotely plausible readings, I mean....

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 18 of 39 (556437)
04-19-2010 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rahvin
04-19-2010 8:41 PM


Neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed.
But each can be changed into the other, as per E=MC2

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 19 of 39 (556449)
04-19-2010 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Huntard
04-19-2010 7:11 AM


"Huntard" writes:
God could not have created stars through natural means becasue...?
Interesting you use the word "could", implying probability - anything is possible, even last Thursday-ism is possible.
But to answer your question as reasonably as I can:
reality tells us otherwise.

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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 20 of 39 (556450)
04-19-2010 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Peg
04-19-2010 8:03 PM


you can read the verse however you like.
No, Peg. I am reading it the way YOU implied. When you quoted:
Isaiah 40:26 writes:
Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? . . . Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.
in this context, you implied a literal reading. Then you also must take the line I quoted literally as well, since it is only 2 verses away.
Isaiah 40:28 writes:
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
At any rate, back on topic: like others have said, energy is not created, only transferred from state to state.

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 21 of 39 (556451)
04-19-2010 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
04-19-2010 7:36 PM


im sure you'd all agree that within the core of a star is vast amount of energy, so where does all this energy come from?
Strong Nuclear Force binding energy
does hydrogen and helium create itself?
No, the initial expansion of the Universe (the Big Bang) is responsible for that.
do these gases really just come together on their own in the vastness of space and fuse to form stars?
No, it involves gravity and Jeans Instability.
Edited by cavediver, : What's the String Nuclear Force???

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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 22 of 39 (556452)
04-19-2010 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Flyer75
04-19-2010 9:04 AM


"Flyer75 writes:
Ahhh...I see. I guess we'll have to wait for the OP to weigh in and see if he has more to add.
I had understood that you agreed with my second point, I just wanted to clarify that using his premise, we can apply a creationist perspective to everything, even evolution, for the theistic evolutionists or gap theorists out there.
You can generalize the issue, for sure. I just wanted to narrow the scope a little.
The point I am trying to make here is:
The bible says God "made two great lights".
One cannot "make" light with hydrogen or gravity alone - only when hydrogen is under the effect of gravity do we see star formation.
We know gravity pulls hydrogen atoms together, not God.
Therefore it is technically incorrect to claim "God" made the light, as we now know the combination of gravity and hydrogen makes it.
You can argue all you like that God made the hydrogen and the gravity and "set them into motion" but we know now that he did not make the light, as it is gravity and hydrogen which makes light.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 23 of 39 (556453)
04-19-2010 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rahvin
04-19-2010 8:41 PM


If you can swap matter to mass, I'll agree with this.
The idea that *matter* cannot be created or destroyed is easily refuted by simple pair creation/annihilation. I have an electron and a positron (matter), and a moment later I just have a pair of photons (radiation). But the energy (or mass) remains the same.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 24 of 39 (556454)
04-19-2010 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-18-2010 11:20 PM


If we can now explain the formation of stars without supernatural intervention, on what grounds does the bible claim god created them?
How do we know god isn't the invisible puppet master? How can we be certain that he/she/it isn't out there slamming molecules and atoms together for shits and giggles, making it look natural (natural from our perspective, of course).
I've often thought we are a science project for whatever deity that may reside "out there", a petri dish if you will. Hell, we are probably even smaller than that: the corner of an edge of a petri dish.

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 25 of 39 (556455)
04-19-2010 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by bluescat48
04-19-2010 9:33 PM


But each can be changed into the other
Nope - matter (which posses energy/mass) can be changed into radiation (which posses energy/mass)
e=mc2 merely expresses the mass/energy equivalence: 1017J of binding energy has a gravitational mass of ~1kg. If you released 1016J of this binding energy as radiation, then the initial mass would drop by 100g (of course, if you total in the mass of the radiation as well, then there would be no loss, but you would be summing over a much larger volume)

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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 26 of 39 (556456)
04-19-2010 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by hooah212002
04-19-2010 11:40 PM


"hooah212002" writes:
How do we know god isn't the invisible puppet master? How can we be certain that he/she/it isn't out there slamming molecules and atoms together for shits and giggles, making it look natural (natural from our perspective, of course).
That's a claim that needs to be proven, until then there is no evidence to suggest there is an invisible puppet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by hooah212002, posted 04-19-2010 11:40 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by hooah212002, posted 04-19-2010 11:54 PM killinghurts has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 27 of 39 (556458)
04-19-2010 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by killinghurts
04-19-2010 11:49 PM


Of course of course, and I wholeheartedly concur. However, this IS the F&B section......I suppose I am just playing devils advocate.

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 28 of 39 (556461)
04-20-2010 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by hooah212002
04-19-2010 11:54 PM


"hooah212002" writes:
Of course of course, and I wholeheartedly concur. However, this IS the F&B section......I suppose I am just playing devils advocate.
With an avatar like that, how could i think otherwise?

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 29 of 39 (556510)
04-20-2010 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by killinghurts
04-19-2010 11:15 PM


killinghurts writes:
reality tells us otherwise.
You have glimpsed god's abilities from reality? Do tell how you did this, I'm sure a lot of theologians are intersted in this.

This message is a reply to:
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xavierkress
Junior Member (Idle past 5086 days)
Posts: 2
From: NC, USA
Joined: 04-20-2010


Message 30 of 39 (556760)
04-20-2010 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-18-2010 11:20 PM


What grounds does Bible claim God created them.
Well I think we are drastically missing some major explanations here on the formation of stars.
Is there evidence that any star we have seen in scientifically observed time of a star being created in the first place? Is it true that we've only seen stars die and not be created?
Also let's go back a bit further and explain the Big Bang theory, I've heard Steven Hawkings speak of a black hole or a big mass of something exploding and everything coming into being from that mass. So where did that mass come from in the first place or where did that blackhole form from in the first place? I mean you need time and space and matter to allow a blackhole to gain mass or eat mass right?
I remember hearing Steven speaking saying that these energy particles were feeding the blackhole, but where is this energy coming from that's feeding the blackhole to start the events of the Big Bang to allow for the formation of the known universe(s)?
Just some thoughts to really delve into this subject. Very interesting comments so far, but it would seem some are setup as strawmen. You have to explain the beginning and where the initial mass or blackhole came from in the first place, who or what created that? Can we deny in any true evidence that God did not create everything and then once created set things into motion to act in it's own accord? Look at man, he was created out of something from someone or thing and then started living and making his/her existence from his/her own accord.
Just some thoughts would like to hear your opinions on it and also some backing scientific observed evidence of these things.

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Replies to this message:
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