Discerning Which Definition to Use

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as i've maintained, i dont believe there is an indicator in the passage that says the yom must be taken as a 24 hour day.

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Again, the indicators are for the figurative not the literal. When it comes to which literal meaning to use, yes, the sentence does give us indicators to which literal meaning is to be used.

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I've stated many times now that a real 'yom' based on the account in genesis is actually only 12 hours. This is becasue the account says that the yom was the 'light'

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It isn't up to you to decide what the definition for yom is. That has already been done by the scholars.There are two literal meanings:
1. the light hours
2. sunset to sunsetIn the Genesis 1 creation story there is a narrator and the character, God. The narrator is the writer of the story. From his own point in time he is writing about the past.The narrator tells us that God called the light "day" and the darkness "night". Then the narrator tells us that there was evening and morning the first day.The narrator is telling his audience that the separation of light and darkness took place in the first sunset to sunset time frame, which is 24 hours. I've shown you before and provided it again in Message 1, that the writer understood a 24 hour day. Their hours weren't evenly spaced like we have today, but they were broken into 12 segments for daylight and 12 segments for night.Stop trying to change what the writer is telling his audience. You blot your copy-book when you can't even accept the basic rules of reading.

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I dont believe you have any indicators for a literal reading...even the surrounding verses use day to mean all 6 days....if it can be used figuratively there, then it can be used figuratively in chpt 1 as well.

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No they don't and I have shown you your error in that area also. Nothing you've provided supports your notions.Quite frankly, I'm starting feel you are being obtuse on purpose.Edited by purpledawn, : Word change

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

So evening=orb and morning=bqr.However:1) you are adding "a". It is written as "day one", "day two", "day three" etc. Not "a second day", "a third day".2) this doesn't help show the correlation to Romans 13:11 that you used as your basis for the figurative "evening"/"morning". Having realized that (no, I cannot off the top of my head tell you what books are OT or NT), it makes me wonder if we can honestly apply the same word usage to NT passages as we do to OT ones, since the NT was written so much later.{edit} The best I could find so far is http://biblelexicon.org/romans/13-13.htm which is a completely different word. It is not evening, Peg. It is night.Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

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"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

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purpledawn writes:

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There is no way to discern these types of things from the text unless the writer explains it at some point like the writer did for Matthew 16:5-6. The explanation is in verse 12.

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which is exactly my point.

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You however claimed that the indicators are located in the sentence alone.
In your OP you stated

purpledawn writes:

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Peg, the usage within the sentence tells us which meaning to use.

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Now are you agreeing with me that other verses help to identify a figurative use?

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No. The issue with yom and your issue with leaven are not the same thing.One deals with a multiple meaning word and determining which definition is to be used in the sentence.The other deals with symbolism and idioms, which have nothing to do with the definition of the words. The words within them are the common meaning, but the phrase has an entirely different meaning; which is determined by the culture.The definitions of the words have already been determined, but you continue to argue the toss.Obviously you're not a dab hand with language skills and don't care to learn.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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purpledawn writes:

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As far as this thread goes, ge has no figurative definition and the common meaning of earth or land is to be applied in 2 Peter 3:10.

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as usual you have officially confused me yet again.

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So tell me, what what do you think 'ge' is according to the verse?

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Apparently you're not comprehending the written word. Your answer is in my words that you quoted. It refers to earth (not the planet) or land.Why don't you tell me what you feel the writer is telling his audience in 2 Peter 3:10 since you feel it is figurative.

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because there are figurative uses for evening and morning in the scriptures which are linked to the 7th day of genesis.

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The Apostle Paul explained that we are living in an 'evening period' and that the morning was approaching

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Romans 13:11 "[Do] this, too, because YOU people know the season, that it is already the hour for YOU to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. 12 The night (evening) is well along; the day (morning) has drawn near..."

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No there aren't figurative uses of morning and evening linked to the 7th day of Genesis.Paul's literary style does not impact what was written in Genesis 1. You haven't learned yet, that just because a word is used literally or figuratively in another language, by another writer, hundreds of years later; doesn't impact another writer's use of the word. Each writer makes their own point.Paul's writing has no impact on Genesis 1. Genesis 1 may influence Paul, but it isn't the other way around.You're trying to change what is written to fit what you need Genesis to say.In Genesis 1:5 and the subsequent days, the words morning and evening are not used figuratively. They refer to morning and to evening. The writer isn't implying anything else. Even in Romans 13:11-12, the words carry their common meaning otherwise his audience wouldn't understand what he was saying. Paul's poetic style of writing doesn't change what is written in Genesis 1:5 and you haven't made a case for the comparison.If you read a book written in the 1800's, it makes no sense to go to a book written today to understand the meaning of a word used in the older book.Learn, Peg.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

not quitei simply dont agree with you.

a figurative use of the word does not mean there has to be the same word usage. Thats the point of the figurative.Pauls teaching about the 7th day is that it is still in progress. Moses teaching was that God rested on the 7th day to allow his purpose for the earth to come to a completion. It still hasnt come to a completion yet which is why Paul teaches that now is the time for us to 'enter into Gods rest'. He also says we are in a time of darkness which he calls the 'night' and the new 'day' is approaching.this is what happens in genesis chpt 1 too. The creative words begin in an evening, also called darkness, and end in a morning, also called light/day.Determining the figurative use comes from understanding Pauls & Moses teaching about the 7th day.

I dont need to do that because Peter does so himself in preceeding verses. This is why i keep saying that the sentence itself is not how to determine what the writer is saying or if the word he is using is meant to be taken figuratively or literally. You cant read the bible that way. You must take other verses into consideration which is what we do with the word yom in genesis.here is Peters own explanation of what the 'earth' is: The earth is figurative for mankind. This is also in harmony with other accounts such as Genesis 18:25 where Abraham says "It is unthinkable of you that you are acting in this manner to put to death the righteous MAN with the wicked one so that it has to occur with the righteous man as it does with the wicked! It is unthinkable of you. Is the Judge of all the EARTH not going to do what is right?So the earth in 2 peter is figurative, its not literally the planet or the land, but is the people who dwell on it.But of course, if you dont take other verses into account when trying to determine this, then you take Peters words literally and assume the earth/land is going to be destroyed as many do.

i guess this is where we have completely different views on what the bible actually is.We view God as the author and he used different writers to reveal his truth in progressive stages throughout history. This is why there is not one single writer who discusses all of Gods will. They all discuss small aspects of truth which is why we need to read them together to understand all of Gods revealed truth.

The words for evening and morning are not even used in romans 13, peg. That was your basis for saying that evening and morning do not mean a literal morning and evening. YOU bolded that peg. YOU lied. Those words aren't there. You are putting them there to fit your faith.Own up or shut up.

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"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

Go back to msg 56. what does genesis say?Gen1:5And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.
And there came to be evening and there came to be morningWas there an evening and morning before the light and darkness? No.So the light and darkness (day/night) is associated with a evening and morning. And Pauls words about the 'night is well along and the day is drawing near' is linked with the 7th day of creation.Im not trying to give you a literal definition, im giving a figurative explanation. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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I dont need to do that because Peter does so himself in preceeding verses. This is why i keep saying that the sentence itself is not how to determine what the writer is saying or if the word he is using is meant to be taken figuratively or literally. You cant read the bible that way. You must take other verses into consideration which is what we do with the word yom in genesis.

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No, that's not how it works and your attempts to make it work are falling flat. Preceding verses and verses from other writers do not tell us which definition of a word is to be used when there are multiple meanings for the word. You keep going off into other tangents that aren't the same thing such as 2 Peter.Nothing in 2 Peter 3 tells us that the word ge refers to mankind. Ge is not a figurative meaning for mankind. The common meaning of the word ge is used. That's why it is translated earth and not mankind.As far as what the author is telling his audience in chapter 3, he isn't using ge to refer to mankind.

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So the earth in 2 peter is figurative, its not literally the planet or the land, but is the people who dwell on it.

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No it isn't. The author is talking about the land and the people who dwell on it. "The earth and everything in it will be laid bare." The word earth is not talking about people.Genesis 18:25 has nothing to do with understanding 2 Peter 3:10.

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But of course, if you dont take other verses into account when trying to determine this, then you take Peters words literally and assume the earth/land is going to be destroyed as many do.

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Unfortunately that is what he's saying, although he's not referring to the planet. The scary part is that the other verses you bring in do nothing to support your position. You're making it say what you need it to say. You're not accepting what it does say.You have no outside support for your methods.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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We view God as the author and he used different writers to reveal his truth in progressive stages throughout history. This is why there is not one single writer who discusses all of Gods will. They all discuss small aspects of truth which is why we need to read them together to understand all of Gods revealed truth.

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That is irrelevant to the issue. If you can't correctly understand what is written, you aren't going to get the correct message.Right now you're making your own message and aren't accepting what is actually being said.

What do you call the portion of a 24 hour period that is dark? Now, what do you call the light portion? of course not peg, because the narrator is telling us what the first thing god did was. That is a stretch and you know it. PD already explained the dishonesty in using later texts to substantiate genesis. What we can gather from this verse (by reading the sentence) is that the writer meant "night-time", or the period of the 24 hour day that is dark and "day-time", or the period of the 24 hour day that is light. This has diddly to do with genesis. It is written in a different language for crying out loud.Proof of this: because they do that shit at night, peg. Not a "a night of a thousand years" or "a period of dark times". No, night time is when it is time to get crunk. Day time is when it is time to be all nicey nice.

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"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

to accept that Peter is actually talking about the earth being destroyed means we must assume that the writers of Isaiah and Psalms, and other writers who spoke about the earth never being destroyed, are wrong.So which writer had it correct?Your method of reading the bible is flawed because it will lead you to contradiction after contradiction. I cant imagine that would give you much confidence in the Word of God.