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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3391 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 346 of 2073 (739639)
10-26-2014 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by Dr Adequate
10-25-2014 11:24 PM


Re: How to teach Evolution
From what you have demonstrated, teaching evolution involves stomping on anything that contravenes the idea, and airing out your laundry in public.
Not good for schools at all.
"Now children, today we are going to look at Evolution.
Life began by an angry wart turning itself into an eye.
Your greatest grandparents swung by their tails and later ate mammoths, but we are so much smarter than all previous species.
The sun is going to explode, burn up the earth and turn into a red dwarf,
write that down..."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-25-2014 11:24 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-26-2014 1:38 PM Colbard has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 347 of 2073 (739645)
10-26-2014 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by Colbard
10-25-2014 7:42 PM


Re: How to teach Reality
In other words "if you want to pass school you'll have to guess the way we guess, and not do your own guessing."
Guess what?
You aren't fooling anybody. Your first post was shown to be based on ignorance and bad logic, and all you do here is repeat your previous mistake.
In other words you following your plan for passing in school have failed.
That's what school is anyway I suppose.
And yet school is not the only way to learn -- you can study evolution, for instance, from
Berkeley's Evolution 101 Online Class
Reading just the first page will show that your straw man is false.
Doing independent research is one way to test the validity of your argument. Don't you agree?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Colbard, posted 10-25-2014 7:42 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 7:46 AM RAZD has replied

  
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Message 348 of 2073 (739653)
10-26-2014 10:53 AM


Moderator Warning
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 349 of 2073 (739662)
10-26-2014 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Colbard
10-25-2014 10:29 PM


Re: How to teach Evolution: not like religion is taught, not by misinformation ...
I made a comment on the basic English meaning of those words, not necessarily your version or a scientific term.
You're funny.
See Definitions, Daffynitions, Delusions, Logic and Critical Thinking. and Why creationist definitions of evolution are wrong, terribly wrong. for why this is a typical creationist ridiculous position.
I know the scientific terms and how they are used. I was showing that in choosing those terms they have a misnomer if they are going by the plain text.
So you are claiming that education on evolution should necessarily involve intentional misuse of words and intentional misinformation to confuse students.
Sounds more like religious teaching to me ... is that the kind of teaching you had?
In school we use the terms in their basic form first, so if the T of E is taught in schools it should come under better terms to describe the horrid thing.
Curiously in the schools I attended we learned the meanings of the words as they were applied in the various courses of study. This may be why I had a good education ...
... to describe the horrid thing.
Again it seems you are talking about religion rather than science or actual information.
You do realize that attempting to denigrate information is a sign of cognitive dissonance behavior -- what happens when you try to resolve untenable beliefs with reality. It is an emotional response instead of a rational one.
Evolution (actual biological evolution) happens every day. It is an observed fact. Get use to it.
Just like the earth is old, very, very old. (see Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 for evidence of age).
Facts are like that, and science education should teach concepts based on facts rather than beliefs, it should teach how to test concepts with objective empirical evidence rather than acceptance based on pretend authority - which is the way religion is taught.
If you want to rationally address the issue of evolution, you would do it with argument based on terms as used in biological evolution, and you would do it with facts, evidence and logic to show any actual errors in this field.
That this is not your present pursuit on this thread indicates - to me - that you do not have any fact, evidence or logic to support your bias and so you flail away with silly self-defeating arguments.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Colbard, posted 10-25-2014 10:29 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 7:59 AM RAZD has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 350 of 2073 (739664)
10-26-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Colbard
10-26-2014 3:41 AM


Re: How to teach Evolution
From what you have demonstrated, teaching evolution involves stomping on anything that contravenes the idea, and airing out your laundry in public.
Not good for schools at all.
"Now children, today we are going to look at Evolution.
Life began by an angry wart turning itself into an eye.
Your greatest grandparents swung by their tails and later ate mammoths, but we are so much smarter than all previous species.
The sun is going to explode, burn up the earth and turn into a red dwarf,
write that down..."
Again, I would suggest that since you have no idea what evolution is, you should try to find out something about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Colbard, posted 10-26-2014 3:41 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 8:05 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3207 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 351 of 2073 (739951)
10-30-2014 12:34 AM


an answer to the original question.
Answer - No.
Explanation - The US School system, because it is funded by taxes, is a system of the states, and ultimately the federal government. Consequently, it is unconstitutional according to many rulings by the US Supreme Court for the US government to support any religion with tax dollars. There must be, as Jefferson noted, a wall of separation between the two. Religion can be, and is taught in private schools, but the public schools are different. Evolution by natural selection is a scientific explanation for the diversity of life on this planet, and there is no serious debate about it in the scientific community. Suggesting that the ToE and Creationism be taught side by side attempts to make these two positions equivalent, which they are not. Should we also teach astrology alongside astronomy, and alchemy alongside chemistry..? The question is ludicrous.

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by NoNukes, posted 10-30-2014 7:41 AM MFFJM2 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 352 of 2073 (739956)
10-30-2014 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by MFFJM2
10-30-2014 12:34 AM


Re: an answer to the original question.
and ultimately the federal government. Consequently, it is unconstitutional according to many rulings by the US Supreme Court for the US government
A bit confused even if your heart is in the right place. The Supreme Court has not ruled that the public school systems are a system of the federal government. Instead, the Court has ruled that the 1st amendment (and much but not all of the bill of rights) applies to the states and their school systems due to incorporation through the 14th amendment.
Were it to be as you said, a state could simply refuse federal intervention in its school system if it wanted to teach religion in schools. And a bunch of states in the deep south would probably choose to do exactly that.
Suggesting that the ToE and Creationism be taught side by side attempts to make these two positions equivalent, which they are not
No it wouldn't. If done honestly discussing Creationism in science class would probably make Creationism look pretty silly. Also, astrology does not complete with astronomy. There would be little to no problem ridiculing alchemy and astrology in a science course.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by MFFJM2, posted 10-30-2014 12:34 AM MFFJM2 has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3391 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 353 of 2073 (739957)
10-30-2014 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by RAZD
10-26-2014 8:39 AM


Re: How to teach Reality
RAZD said, going independent research is one way to test the validity of your argument. Don't you agree?
Absolutely, but not too independent, it's a balance of self and others. I like your reply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2014 8:39 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by RAZD, posted 10-30-2014 9:04 AM Colbard has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3391 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 354 of 2073 (739958)
10-30-2014 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by RAZD
10-26-2014 1:27 PM


Re: How to teach Evolution: not like religion is taught, not by misinformation ...
Sermonizing on Evolution is a contradiction.
You can present what one regards as fact, but to be emotive or moralistic maybe leaning towards the dark ages. We don't want to be preaching evolution.
Making me out to be of the religious stock is untrue and unfair, since I have only been arguing the case that if the T of E is going to be taught, then it's basic name and philosophies should be scrutinized. Not all who oppose evolution are bias towards the church's agenda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2014 1:27 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by RAZD, posted 10-30-2014 4:09 PM Colbard has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3391 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 355 of 2073 (739959)
10-30-2014 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Dr Adequate
10-26-2014 1:38 PM


Re: How to teach Evolution
Children are not going to relish the long version of things, they'll summarize evolution down fairly quickly, to - "the world was filled with dinosaurs and we are all going to die like them, unless we become fighters"
Hence the popularity of the game themes based on fighting monsters, which takes up most of their home time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-26-2014 1:38 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2014 10:51 AM Colbard has replied
 Message 366 by Astrophile, posted 11-01-2014 5:39 PM Colbard has replied
 Message 380 by Larni, posted 11-04-2014 6:43 AM Colbard has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 356 of 2073 (739967)
10-30-2014 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Colbard
10-30-2014 7:46 AM


Re: How to teach Reality
RAZD said, going independent research is one way to test the validity of your argument. Don't you agree?
Try this next time:
type [qs=RAZD]Doing independent research is one way to test the validity of your argument. Don't you agree?[/qs] and it becomes:
RAZD writes:
Doing independent research is one way to test the validity of your argument. Don't you agree?
You can also copy and paste what you are quoting rather than retyping it -- I did that in orange -- that avoids typos and accusations of misrepresentation.
Absolutely, but not too independent, it's a balance of self and others. I like your reply.
And what do you do when the independent research shows your opinion to be faulty?
For instance, if you believe the earth is young, and you ran across the evidence in Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 ... would you accept the evidence of old age or reject and ignore it?
In other words, do you use independent study to correct your opinions with better approximations of reality or just to reinforce your beliefs by rejecting contrary evidence?
Enjoy
ps -- you can use the peek functions to see how formating is done.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 7:46 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 11:09 AM RAZD has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 357 of 2073 (739971)
10-30-2014 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Colbard
10-30-2014 8:05 AM


Re: How to teach Evolution
Children are not going to relish the long version of things, they'll summarize evolution down fairly quickly, to - "the world was filled with dinosaurs and we are all going to die like them, unless we become fighters"
That would pretty much be an argument against trying to teach anything. They're not going to relish the long version of calculus or Spanish verb forms either, but they don't turn everything they hear into stupid nonsense, because they aren't as dumb as you think they are. Also, since dinosaurs were killed by a giant meteorite, the moral an incredibly stupid person would draw from their extinction is that they should wear a hard hat at all times.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 8:05 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 11:16 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3391 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 358 of 2073 (739973)
10-30-2014 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by RAZD
10-30-2014 9:04 AM


Re: How to teach Reality
RAZD writes:
You can also copy and paste what you are quoting rather than retyping it -- I did that in orange -- that avoids typos and accusations of misrepresentation.
You're a kind bloke
RAZD writes:
-And what do you do when the independent research shows your opinion to be faulty?
Then it's the independent v's the majority. What does history show about individuals who stand out from the majority? It' not a criterion for truth but often the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by RAZD, posted 10-30-2014 9:04 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2014 11:19 AM Colbard has replied
 Message 722 by Phat, posted 11-29-2014 8:29 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 723 by RAZD, posted 11-29-2014 9:09 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3391 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 359 of 2073 (739974)
10-30-2014 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by Dr Adequate
10-30-2014 10:51 AM


Re: How to teach Evolution
Dr Adequate writes:
That would pretty much be an argument against trying to teach anything. They're not going to relish the long version of calculus or Spanish verb forms either, but they don't turn everything they hear into stupid nonsense, because they aren't as dumb as you think they are. Also, since dinosaurs were killed by a giant meteorite, the moral an incredibly stupid person would draw from their extinction is that they should wear a hard hat at all times.
True, about children and calculus...
the hard hats (and hi vis clothing) would have saved the dinosaurs, according to the safety authorities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2014 10:51 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 360 of 2073 (739975)
10-30-2014 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by Colbard
10-30-2014 11:09 AM


Re: How to teach Reality
What does history show about individuals who stand out from the majority? It' not a criterion for truth but often the case.
No it's not. Most of 'em are loonies. For every Einstein, there's a million idiots and crackpots who think they're the next Einstein. Of course, only Einstein gets mentioned in the books that get written about history, but this is a matter of sampling bias.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 11:09 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 8:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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