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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
RAZD
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Posts: 18653
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 946 of 984 (759616)
06-13-2015 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 945 by Tangle
06-13-2015 1:53 PM


Ya mean gezus gryst?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 947 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-13-2015 3:31 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3794
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 947 of 984 (759618)
06-13-2015 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 946 by RAZD
06-13-2015 3:17 PM


Enough of this topic diversion
A general reply, even if I'm posting it as a reply to RAZD (the last culprit in the non-topic diversion).

Do something at least somewhat connected to the topic theme, or don't post.

No reply needed.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 946 by RAZD, posted 06-13-2015 3:17 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18653
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 948 of 984 (759621)
06-13-2015 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 944 by MrHambre
06-13-2015 1:29 PM


science vs humanities
On the one hand, there's a lot of controversy in scientific circles about whether natural selection can be said to be the prime mechanism driving evolution. But on the other hand, at least natural selection can be demonstrated, ...

Indeed, and when it comes to public school science classes, the emphasis should be on processes that can be defined simply, and observed in action: such as the classic Peppered Moths demonstrate the simplicity of natural selection (first for dark moths and then for light moths).

On the one hand, there's a lot of controversy in scientific circles about whether natural selection can be said to be the prime mechanism driving evolution. ...

Certainly a case can be made for genetic drift being a major source of change when selection pressure is small or non-existent (a stasis ecology).

And sexual selection can operate at a faster time scale than natural selection, especially if you get to Fisherian runaway sexual selection.

... can be demonstrated, unlike a "supreme consciousness."

The idea of creationism could be introduced as a means of demonstrating why scientific hypothesis need to be testable and make predictions to qualify as science and why science doesn't address questions that cannot be tested.

Creationism can also be taught in a comparative religion humanities type class, comparing the creation myths from multiple various cultures. It could be a "fair and balanced" class discussing the pros and cons of different religions ...

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 944 by MrHambre, posted 06-13-2015 1:29 PM MrHambre has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15934
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 949 of 984 (759715)
06-14-2015 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 940 by ggirard
06-13-2015 12:17 PM


However, to believe that natural selection is the only, or even prime, mechanism driving evolution is as much an act of faith as it is to believe in a supreme consciousness driving it.

Why do you say that? We can, after all observe evolution by natural selection. But we have never observed evolution driven by a supreme consciousness any more than we have observed evolution caused by Magic Evolution Pixies. Clearly it is less of a stretch to ascribe evolution to a process which we can observe causing evolution than to a hypothetical entity that we have never observed causing evolution; just as, for example, it is less of a stretch to attribute lightning to electricity, which we know about, than to Thor, whose very existence is questionable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 940 by ggirard, posted 06-13-2015 12:17 PM ggirard has not yet responded

  
evolutionfacts
Junior Member
Posts: 12
From: Long Beach, CA
Joined: 08-22-2010


Message 950 of 984 (808008)
05-08-2017 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 12:44 AM


"the details of life are too complicated to be left to a process that has no morals"

Well at least this doesn't sound completely made up....


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Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 951 of 984 (808070)
05-08-2017 11:47 AM


Evolution is taught by force and intimidation
Of course evolution should not be forced on students in school. The intimidated and intimidating teachers demand compliance because they can't answer questions put to them, and dumbing down students for use in a dumbed down society helps the elite control.

Selah....


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


Replies to this message:
 Message 952 by Coyote, posted 05-08-2017 11:51 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5863
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 952 of 984 (808072)
05-08-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 951 by Davidjay
05-08-2017 11:47 AM


Re: Creation is taught by sneaky tricks
Of course evolution should not be forced on students in school.

And of course creationists want their odd brand of religion taught in schools and have been using all manner of sneaky tricks to get that done--in violation of law.

Remember Dover and "cdesign proponentsists?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/...and_.22cdesign_proponentsists.22


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 951 by Davidjay, posted 05-08-2017 11:47 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 953 by Davidjay, posted 05-08-2017 11:55 AM Coyote has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 953 of 984 (808074)
05-08-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 952 by Coyote
05-08-2017 11:51 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
No keep, schools for knowledge rather than theories. Teach facts and separate religion and the state.

The dam state and religion are in bed together already. Separate them from each other and their illicit heat and union. The state needs workers to just be dumb enough to work for others rather than them being thinking individuals and free.

Dont you know this...

Coyotes in the wild are really out of tune.... but they do chase truth road runners, in hopes of one day catching one....

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 952 by Coyote, posted 05-08-2017 11:51 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 954 by Coyote, posted 05-08-2017 1:14 PM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 955 by Taq, posted 05-08-2017 1:34 PM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 956 by RAZD, posted 05-08-2017 2:25 PM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 957 by Chiroptera, posted 05-08-2017 2:55 PM Davidjay has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5863
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 954 of 984 (808109)
05-08-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by Davidjay
05-08-2017 11:55 AM


Wrong again
No keep, schools for knowledge rather than theories. Teach facts and separate religion and the state.

Another creationist "talking point." And a false one. Theories are the highest level of explanation in science. Theories organize and explain facts.

Coyotes in the wild are really out of tune...

Still another example of how wrong you are. Coyotes are smarter than wolves. Just look around the lower 48 states--wolves are extinct in most places, while coyotes are dining on Beverly Hills poodles!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by Davidjay, posted 05-08-2017 11:55 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6632
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(4)
Message 955 of 984 (808124)
05-08-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by Davidjay
05-08-2017 11:55 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
Davidjay writes:

No keep, schools for knowledge rather than theories. Teach facts and separate religion and the state.

Let's start a list of what Davidjay does not want taught in science class.

1. Matter is made up of individual atoms (Atom theory).
2. Infectious diseases are caused by microorganisms (Germ Theory of Disease).
3. Time and distance change in different inertial frames (Theory of Relativity).
4. Light acts as a particle or a wave (quantum theory).

Those are just 4 off the top of my head. What you are really asking people to do is not teach science, period. The entire reason we have the scientific method is to create theories. The goal of science is to create theories.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by Davidjay, posted 05-08-2017 11:55 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18653
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 956 of 984 (808135)
05-08-2017 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by Davidjay
05-08-2017 11:55 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
No keep, schools for knowledge rather than theories ...

Theories are part of knowledge. Teaching without them is like teaching history with just the dates things happened.

The state needs workers to just be dumb enough to work for others rather than them being thinking individuals and free.

Which is what happens without theories.

The dam state and religion are in bed together already.

Agreed. All one need to is suggest other religions be taught to the same extent christianity is and the howling begins about a war on christianity.

Coyotes in the wild are ...

... survivalists, able to find niches even in urban areas. Of course wolves suppress them, but when we eliminate wolves the coyotes take over their terrain.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by Davidjay, posted 05-08-2017 11:55 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6352
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 957 of 984 (808146)
05-08-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by Davidjay
05-08-2017 11:55 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
No keep, schools for knowledge rather than theories. Teach facts and separate religion and the state.

Theories are facts, at least the ones taught at the level of elementary and high school.

Like it or not, everything attracts everything else with a force that is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

Like it or not, matter isn't a perfect continuum but is composed of discrete atoms.

Like it or not, the sun is powered by fusing hydrogen nuclei to form helium nuclei.

Like it or not, all know species have descended from a common ancestor, and natural section acting on random, inheritable variations is the primary mechanism that caused this.

-

The state needs workers to just be dumb enough to work for others....

Do you realize that one way to keep workers dumb is to just teach them lists of basic "facts" without any organizing principles behind those facts (that is, "theories"} and the reasoning that underlies those principles?


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 958 by Davidjay, posted 05-10-2017 11:55 AM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 958 of 984 (808373)
05-10-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 957 by Chiroptera
05-08-2017 2:55 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
They need to be taught the scientific method, they need tools for discernment rather than forced indocrination.

Force them to study and learn numbers and times tables, and letters and sounds, as does the 3rd world students learn. Its called work, because the thrill and enjoyment comes from learning math and learning geomtery and learning architecture and construction and DESIGN...and learning how to read and discern for themselves through the written words of designed languages....

1st world education is horrifc and is meant to dumb down students and future citizens into lethargy and stupidity.

My eldest son skipped two grades in high school when we brought him to Canada, because the 3rd world schooling was so much more advanced than in Canda, where they adopted insane math and english standards of fun and games.

Separate schools from the state....... but it wont happen.

They fornicate together as the Good Book of Revelation states and all other prophetic books.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 957 by Chiroptera, posted 05-08-2017 2:55 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 959 by Taq, posted 05-10-2017 1:15 PM Davidjay has responded
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Taq
Member
Posts: 6632
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(3)
Message 959 of 984 (808386)
05-10-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 958 by Davidjay
05-10-2017 11:55 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
They need to be taught the scientific method,

So what is the scientific method, as you define it?

they need tools for discernment rather than forced indocrination.

My irony meter just exploded.

Force them to study and learn numbers and times tables, and letters and sounds, as does the 3rd world students learn.

Do you think memorizing facts is the scientific method?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 958 by Davidjay, posted 05-10-2017 11:55 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 960 by Davidjay, posted 05-10-2017 2:42 PM Taq has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 960 of 984 (808402)
05-10-2017 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 959 by Taq
05-10-2017 1:15 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
I repeat, memorizing letters and vowel sounds help students learn to read. It takes some work to learn. Its not all luck and chance.

It takes some hard memory work in mathematics tables before mathematics makes more sense, rather than the dumbing down insane mathematics of today taught in our dumbing dowen schools. I repeat 3rd world countries have a better education system than the so called 1st world countries.

Knowing basics helps liberate one to discerning higher up truths and laws.

Luck and chance evolutionists have no applications in any other field of science. Its wasted time and effort learning nothingness that helps in no way.

Separate school and state and religion in our classrooms. Will it happen NO, because evolution is part of todays religion because todays religion is materialism, work for the man, work for the education system, work for a paycheck as the evolutionists do.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 959 by Taq, posted 05-10-2017 1:15 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 961 by Taq, posted 05-10-2017 2:47 PM Davidjay has responded
 Message 967 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-10-2017 5:43 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
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