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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Percy
Member
Posts: 17324
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1006 of 1063 (827076)
01-16-2018 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 999 by creation
01-16-2018 9:49 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
creation writes:

Yes, things arrive here. We THEN see them in time here. Our time and space. So, for example if light here moves at x speed in our time and spae, we know that. Now, how fast does it move in deep space, do you know? Remember you may not use anything in our time and solar system area where WE see the light as a basis for claiming time related issues ut in far space.

I addressed this already in Message 678 in thread Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A).

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 999 by creation, posted 01-16-2018 9:49 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1007 by creation, posted 01-17-2018 10:06 AM Percy has responded

    
creation
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1007 of 1063 (827094)
01-17-2018 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Percy
01-16-2018 7:23 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
percy writes:

We not only see things from here, we also see things from our space probes. Obviously space-time is the same all the way out to the Voyager spacecraft that are now way way out beyond Pluto, since they continue to work normally as designed.

That does not address anything outside the area of the solar system and earth actually. Try again.

No probe has even gotten on light day away yet.

Edited by creation, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Percy, posted 01-16-2018 7:23 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1010 by Percy, posted 01-17-2018 10:58 AM creation has responded

    
creation
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1008 of 1063 (827095)
01-17-2018 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1005 by Modulous
01-16-2018 2:51 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
modulus writes:

..

What is in the fishbowl of earth and the solar system area is not relevant to what time is like is deep space.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1005 by Modulous, posted 01-16-2018 2:51 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1009 by Coragyps, posted 01-17-2018 10:50 AM creation has responded
 Message 1011 by Percy, posted 01-17-2018 10:59 AM creation has responded
 Message 1012 by Modulous, posted 01-17-2018 1:15 PM creation has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5324
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 1009 of 1063 (827096)
01-17-2018 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1008 by creation
01-17-2018 10:08 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
Supernovae that are fifty million light years away show light curves just like those of nearby supernovae. All of these can be modeled using the radioactive decay of cobalt-60. It decays at the same rate there as it does on Earth. So time is the same as far as we can see.
You are making things up, creation. Silly things.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by creation, posted 01-17-2018 10:08 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1020 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:24 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17324
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1010 of 1063 (827097)
01-17-2018 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1007 by creation
01-17-2018 10:06 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
creation writes:

percy writes:

We not only see things from here, we also see things from our space probes. Obviously space-time is the same all the way out to the Voyager spacecraft that are now way way out beyond Pluto, since they continue to work normally as designed.

That does not address anything outside the area of the solar system and earth actually. Try again.

There's no reason to try again. I and others have already explained how we know that the laws of nature are the same everywhere we look in the universe.

But regarding your specific and erroneous claim that we only see things from here, I provided the example of space probes that can see things from as far away as outside the boundaries of the solar system (Voyager 1 left the solar system in August of 2012).

No probe has even gotten on light day away yet.

True - so what? Voyager 1 is about .7 of a light day away. Is a light day your threshold? If a probe reaches a distance of a light day from the sun and still perceives things out there as being the same as here, will that settle it for you? Because in about 15 years Voyager 1 will be about a light day away.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1007 by creation, posted 01-17-2018 10:06 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1015 by creation, posted 01-19-2018 4:11 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17324
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1011 of 1063 (827098)
01-17-2018 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1008 by creation
01-17-2018 10:08 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
creation writes:

What is in the fishbowl of earth and the solar system area is not relevant to what time is like is deep space.

And you know this how?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by creation, posted 01-17-2018 10:08 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1014 by creation, posted 01-19-2018 4:07 PM Percy has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 1012 of 1063 (827110)
01-17-2018 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by creation
01-17-2018 10:08 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
What is in the fishbowl of earth and the solar system area is not relevant to what time is like is deep space.

But if what explains what is happening in deep space also, without modification, explains what is going on in the 'fishbowl' - that constitutes a very strong reason to suppose the fishbowl and deep space are part of the same nature. Without any reason at all to suppose otherwise - that's the scientific conclusion and that's why it should be taught where appropriate - your made-up rules and baseless repeated opining notwithstanding.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by creation, posted 01-17-2018 10:08 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1013 by creation, posted 01-19-2018 4:05 PM Modulous has responded

  
creation
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1013 of 1063 (827195)
01-19-2018 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1012 by Modulous
01-17-2018 1:15 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
modulus writes:

But if what explains what is happening in deep space also, without modification, explains what is going on in the 'fishbowl' - that constitutes a very strong reason to suppose the fishbowl and deep space are part of the same nature. Without any reason at all to suppose otherwise - that's the scientific conclusion and that's why it should be taught where appropriate - your made-up rules and baseless repeated opining notwithstanding.

Name an example of something you think explains time and it's nature n the far universe!?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1012 by Modulous, posted 01-17-2018 1:15 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1019 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2018 10:13 AM creation has responded

    
creation
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1014 of 1063 (827197)
01-19-2018 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1011 by Percy
01-17-2018 10:59 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
percy writes:

And you know this how?

--Percy

Because we need reason to claim it is so. You have none. So we don't know. That means you can't claim time is a certain way there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1011 by Percy, posted 01-17-2018 10:59 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1016 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2018 4:28 PM creation has responded
 Message 1017 by Percy, posted 01-19-2018 5:35 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1015 of 1063 (827198)
01-19-2018 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1010 by Percy
01-17-2018 10:58 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
percy writes:

There's no reason to try again. I and others have already explained how we know that the laws of nature are the same everywhere we look in the universe.

No. You have not even addressed what time is like in the far universe. That can't be done by simply noting what it is like here, in the light we see here in time here.

But regarding your specific and erroneous claim that we only see things from here, I provided the example of space probes that can see things from as far away as outside the boundaries of the solar system (Voyager 1 left the solar system in August of 2012).
It was not erroneous. By here I refer to the solar system and area. The probe is still less than a light day away. It is still here.

True - so what? Voyager 1 is about .7 of a light day away. Is a light day your threshold? If a probe reaches a distance of a light day from the sun and still perceives things out there as being the same as here, will that settle it for you? Because in about 15 years Voyager 1 will be about a light day away.

--Percy

What is known is my threshold. You may speak only of what it is like where it is known, and that is, as you say, .7 of one light day away at the moment. If you want to speak of a whole light day, come back in 15 years!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1010 by Percy, posted 01-17-2018 10:58 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1018 by Percy, posted 01-19-2018 6:14 PM creation has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5748
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1016 of 1063 (827201)
01-19-2018 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1014 by creation
01-19-2018 4:07 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
creation writes:

Because we need reason to claim it is so. You have none. So we don't know. That means you can't claim time is a certain way there.

This is a science thread, so let's stick to science.

There's a very large amount of evidence that tells us that things work the same way elsewhere as they do here. You've been shown some of it. Additionally, despite looking with everything we have, we've found nothing to contradict that.

The supported hypothesis therefore is that stuff happens the same way everywhere. So sure, it must remain possible that stuff is different elsewhere, but until there's any evidence at all that that's the case, the hypothesis stands.

You're objections are irrational and religious. Come back when you have a case.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1014 by creation, posted 01-19-2018 4:07 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1024 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:30 PM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17324
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1017 of 1063 (827207)
01-19-2018 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1014 by creation
01-19-2018 4:07 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
creation writes:

percy writes:

And you know this how?
--Percy

Because we need reason to claim it is so. You have none. So we don't know. That means you can't claim time is a certain way there.

We've provided you evidence and rationale and you've responded with nothing but denial. As Tangle notes, it isn't impossible that we're wrong, but so far all the evidence points in one direction, that the laws of nature are the same throughout the universe across all time at least as far back as the Big Bang.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1014 by creation, posted 01-19-2018 4:07 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1023 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:28 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17324
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1018 of 1063 (827209)
01-19-2018 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1015 by creation
01-19-2018 4:11 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
creation writes:

percy writes:

There's no reason to try again. I and others have already explained how we know that the laws of nature are the same everywhere we look in the universe.

No. You have not even addressed what time is like in the far universe.

But we have. The explanations you've requested have been provided, explanations that anyone can see in these threads, and your denials don't change that.

That can't be done by simply noting what it is like here, in the light we see here in time here.

Why do you think it can't be done? Light arrives here from anything that emits light, which includes objects at great distances, such as moons, planets, stars and galaxies. That light can be analyzed, and it tells us that the laws of nature out there are the same as here.

True - so what? Voyager 1 is about .7 of a light day away. Is a light day your threshold? If a probe reaches a distance of a light day from the sun and still perceives things out there as being the same as here, will that settle it for you? Because in about 15 years Voyager 1 will be about a light day away.

What is known is my threshold. You may speak only of what it is like where it is known, and that is, as you say, .7 of one light day away at the moment. If you want to speak of a whole light day, come back in 15 years!

Well, you're certainly consistent with the history of religion, where their claims of what is true of the real world continuously shrink as scientific knowledge increases. So your threshold today is .7 light days, and in 15 years it will be 1 light day, and a hundred years later it will be 2 light days, then 3, then 4. Of course, not to worry, Voyager 1's plutonium power source is running down and will be dead long before that, and your descendants can continue claiming, "Nope, nope, nope, one light day, that's it, further away you know nothing. That light arriving from distant stars tells us nothing. Amen."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1015 by creation, posted 01-19-2018 4:11 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1022 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:27 PM Percy has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 1019 of 1063 (827238)
01-21-2018 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1013 by creation
01-19-2018 4:05 PM


nature of time
Name an example of something you think explains time and it's nature n the far universe!?

Physics.

Ask a broad question, expect a broad answer.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1013 by creation, posted 01-19-2018 4:05 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1021 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:25 PM Modulous has responded

  
creation
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1020 of 1063 (827254)
01-21-2018 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1009 by Coragyps
01-17-2018 10:50 AM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
Supernovae that are fifty million light years away show light curves just like those of nearby supernovae. All of these can be modeled using the radioactive decay of cobalt-60. It decays at the same rate there as it does on Earth. So time is the same as far as we can see.
You are making things up, creation. Silly things.
Unless time existed out there also as here, no distances are known actually. Stop preaching what you do not know.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1009 by Coragyps, posted 01-17-2018 10:50 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
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