Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 82 (8871 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-15-2018 6:09 PM
269 online now:
Coragyps, GDR, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Phat (AdminPhat) (5 members, 264 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: paradigm of types
Post Volume:
Total: 842,007 Year: 16,830/29,783 Month: 818/1,956 Week: 321/331 Day: 49/50 Hour: 0/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
808182
83
8485Next
Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
creation
Member
Posts: 425
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1231 of 1266 (842476)
11-01-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1226 by Tanypteryx
10-31-2018 2:45 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
You cannot wave away the record of all time and human experience and call it imaginary for no reason.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1226 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-31-2018 2:45 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1234 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-01-2018 3:04 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 425
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1232 of 1266 (842478)
11-01-2018 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1225 by DrJones*
10-31-2018 2:39 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
Says you. I'll go with Jesus, thanks. The Gabriel of the bible is not the Gabriel Mohamed supposedly met. You can believe whatever you like.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1225 by DrJones*, posted 10-31-2018 2:39 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 425
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1233 of 1266 (842479)
11-01-2018 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1224 by ringo
10-31-2018 2:07 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
False prophesy all you like. I will go with the already proven prophesy of God in His word, thanks.

Lurkers, note the sort of things that the avid supporters of origin sciences claim here...you should get the idea of what spirit is really behind things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1224 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 2:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1238 by ringo, posted 11-02-2018 12:06 PM creation has responded
 Message 1243 by caffeine, posted 11-02-2018 5:50 PM creation has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1767
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1234 of 1266 (842480)
11-01-2018 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1231 by creation
11-01-2018 2:55 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
You cannot wave away the record of all time and human experience and call it imaginary for no reason.

I can wave away imaginary fiction. You have no knowledge of "the record of all time and human experience."


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1231 by creation, posted 11-01-2018 2:55 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1241 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 5:39 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4251
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1235 of 1266 (842491)
11-01-2018 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1230 by creation
11-01-2018 2:54 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
You keep using that word "assumption". I do not think it means what you think it means.

The constancy of how the Universe works is a conclusion. References already supplied


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1230 by creation, posted 11-01-2018 2:54 PM creation has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19666
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1236 of 1266 (842507)
11-02-2018 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1229 by creation
11-01-2018 2:52 PM


How do you know what you know?
... There are children of God, and children of Satan. ...

How do you know you are one and not the other?

This is one of the fundamental aspects of education -- how do you know what you (think you) know?

How do you validate it?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1229 by creation, posted 11-01-2018 2:52 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1239 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 5:37 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19666
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 1237 of 1266 (842508)
11-02-2018 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1230 by creation
11-01-2018 2:54 PM


Conclusion vs Assumption, Belief, teach the difference
Nothing is tested about nature in the far past actually. ...

Every time we make a measurement of something from the past (C14, star light spectra, etc), we are testing the past and the nature of that past.

... The models are constructed assuming it was the same. ...

Nope. When the results show similarity to the present we conclude it was the same. We conclude this because it is the best explanation for the results showing similarity to today.

This is a great thing to teach in school -- how conclusions are reached based on evidence, and what those conclusions tell us about the past and the present.

... You test here and now. ...

It's kind of hard to test elsewhere and elsewhen when we are here and now. Your assertions are here and now, and you have no knowledge nor evidence of things being different elsewhere and elsewhen.

You make an assumption that it is different based on a fantasy belief that the earth is young.

This runs counter to the evidence.

When we teach children, one of the important things is to teach them how to tell the difference between fantasy and reality, what tools to use, what validation process to use.

... You use religion for tests, because it is only belief that says nature was the same. ...

Nope. We use conclusions based of the results of searching to find differences in the past and not finding any significant differences in the ways things (C14, light spectra, etc), happen.

You keep confusing religion and belief with conclusions, because that is the way you think, the way you reinforce your beliefs is through religion and belief.

Another great teaching point: being able to understand what you are talking about so that you can make valid statements, premises, conclusions, versus just making wild assertions.

... Proceeding as if it was the same without proving it is wasting time and indulging in beliefs. ...

Proceeding as if it was the same because that has not been invalidated in spite of serious effort to do so is how science works: you proceed on the basis of conclusions reached until - and only until - those conclusions are invalidated.

Talking about fantasy alternate worlds is a waste of time and indulging in beliefs, and yet this is what you propose in place of science.

Again, an important thing to teach is being able to discern between factual results and fantasy/imaginary results.

... All correlations based on that are circular and belief based.

You keep saying this, but methinks you do not know what circular reasoning is.

Correlations occur because two different measurement systems reach the same conclusion. Neither system uses the any element of the other to reach their conclusions (which would be circular). If either measurement system was prone to error or was wildly inaccurate then the correlations would not occur.

Again, this is a perfect example of what should be taught in school -- how to reach valid conclusions from the evidence, rather than just making claims based on belief and ignorance.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1230 by creation, posted 11-01-2018 2:54 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1242 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 5:45 PM RAZD has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1238 of 1266 (842521)
11-02-2018 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1233 by creation
11-01-2018 3:00 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
creation writes:

False prophesy all you like.


The death of creationism isn't prophecy. It's history. Haven't you heard the news? There's no creationism in schools.

creation writes:

I will go with the already proven prophesy of God in His word, thanks.


If you want to talk prophecy, we have threads on that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1233 by creation, posted 11-01-2018 3:00 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1240 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 5:38 PM ringo has responded

  
creation
Member
Posts: 425
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1239 of 1266 (842540)
11-02-2018 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1236 by RAZD
11-02-2018 7:09 AM


Re: How do you know what you know?
Jesus.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1236 by RAZD, posted 11-02-2018 7:09 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
creation
Member
Posts: 425
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1240 of 1266 (842541)
11-02-2018 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1238 by ringo
11-02-2018 12:06 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
Your false prophesy is of no worth.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1238 by ringo, posted 11-02-2018 12:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1257 by ringo, posted 11-04-2018 1:11 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 425
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1241 of 1266 (842542)
11-02-2018 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1234 by Tanypteryx
11-01-2018 3:04 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
You are in no position to call the records of people long ago fiction. Personal incredulity. Prove it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1234 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-01-2018 3:04 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1244 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-02-2018 6:47 PM creation has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 425
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1242 of 1266 (842543)
11-02-2018 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1237 by RAZD
11-02-2018 7:40 AM


Re: Conclusion vs Assumption, Belief, teach the difference
Every time you take a measure of something from the past you are looking at it here. Always.

So we do not need your assumption of what nature was like. Either you know, or not.

You claim to look for differences in light spectra from the past, the thing is there is only light coming in now. The elements it reveals cannot tell us what time is like out there. You must know what time is like to claim billions of years. You only measure things here.

Your claims of the far universe having the same time are science fiction. Totally unrelated to any factual evidence.

You talk of two different measurement systems. Too bad for you ALL your systems stem only from ONE belief. Molesting evidences of two types with that belief is not two systems, it is two molestations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1237 by RAZD, posted 11-02-2018 7:40 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1245 by RAZD, posted 11-03-2018 1:48 AM creation has responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1243 of 1266 (842546)
11-02-2018 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1233 by creation
11-01-2018 3:00 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
Lurkers, note the sort of things that the avid supporters of origin sciences claim here...you should get the idea of what spirit is really behind things.

Maybe if you used quotes lurkers would find it simpler to follow what your short non-sequitius were referring to.

Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.

Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1233 by creation, posted 11-01-2018 3:00 PM creation has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1767
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1244 of 1266 (842559)
11-02-2018 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1241 by creation
11-02-2018 5:39 PM


Re: This is a thread about what should be taught in school
You are in no position to call the records of people long ago fiction. Personal incredulity. Prove it.

Sure I am. I know that you cannot even start to prove that it is not fiction.

I have been watching you. So far, all you have done is is post barely coherent assertions about fictional stories and characters and pure fantasies from your uneducated mind.

I don't know where or if you went to school, but if you did you should sue.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1241 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 5:39 PM creation has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19666
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1245 of 1266 (842577)
11-03-2018 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1242 by creation
11-02-2018 5:45 PM


Re: Conclusion vs Assumption, Belief, teach the difference
RAZD Message 1236:
... There are children of God, and children of Satan. ...

How do you know you are one and not the other?

This is one of the fundamental aspects of education -- how do you know what you (think you) know?

How do you validate it?

creation Message 1239: Jesus

Strangely, that does not answer the questions.

Please tell me where Jesus specifically talks about a change in nature -- not your interpretation of parts of the bible but where Jesus is recorded as specifically talking about a change in nature.

Every time you take a measure of something from the past you are looking at it here. Always.

So we do not need your assumption of what nature was like. Either you know, or not.

We've already covered this, they are conclusions from the evidence, not assumptions. The evidence shows the same types of tree rings indistinguishable from the types of annual rings today: conclusion - they are annual rings, and counting them gives the age/s in years. Every test on the tree rings, from C14 levels to matching historical events has only confirmed they are annual rings.

You claim to look for differences in light spectra from the past, the thing is there is only light coming in now. The elements it reveals cannot tell us what time is like out there. You must know what time is like to claim billions of years. You only measure things here.

No, we look at light spectra here and now, and we see the same patterns of light bands in the spectra that match the patterns of elements here and now:

quote:
The emission spectrum of a chemical element or chemical compound is the spectrum of frequencies of electromagnetic radiation emitted due to an atom or molecule making a transition from a high energy state to a lower energy state. The photon energy of the emitted photon is equal to the energy difference between the two states. There are many possible electron transitions for each atom, and each transition has a specific energy difference. This collection of different transitions, leading to different radiated wavelengths, make up an emission spectrum. Each element's emission spectrum is unique. Therefore, spectroscopy can be used to identify the elements in matter of unknown composition. Similarly, the emission spectra of molecules can be used in chemical analysis of substances.

Each element has their own unique pattern of light bars because of the quantum physics of energy states. When we see the same pattern, we see the signature of those elements. Each element has multiple bands, one for each energy state that produces a photon emission.

The star light we are seeing them in is from far away in the universe, and thus there is some red shift in the position of the emission spectrum bands, due to the expansion of the universe.

We observe the emission bands, we observe that the pattern of bands and gaps match specific elements here on earth, we observe that they are shifted towards the red end of the spectrum, we observe that this is consistent with great distance and the expansion of the universe. We conclude that this confirms the current model of the universe.

... You must know what time is like to claim billions of years. ...

Nope, we only need to conclude that the observations are consistent with the current model of the universe and that the red shift is consistent with great distance and the expansion of the universe.

Your claims of the far universe having the same time are science fiction.

Except that the evidence supports the conclusion of similar time, as modeled with relativity.

You talk of two different measurement systems. Too bad for you ALL your systems stem only from ONE belief. ...

So tell me again how this "ONE belief" affects the Egyptian chronology and the tree rings and results in multiple correlations of dates in the Old Kingdom and afterwards.

Be specific:

  1. how does it change the Egyptian chronology
  2. how does it change the tree ring chronology
  3. how does it make these changes and still have multiple correlations

Demonstrate your claim instead of just repeating it.

Because this is what should be taught in school -- how to demonstrate that a claim is valid.

But you won't, because this is just a fantasy of yours, not reality, and you can't demonstrate evidence that does not exist.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1242 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 5:45 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1248 by creation, posted 11-03-2018 3:14 PM RAZD has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
808182
83
8485Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018