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Author Topic:   Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 140 of 607 (561968)
05-24-2010 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Straggler
05-24-2010 6:54 PM


Re: What Would You Consider A Valid Refutation?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Well both relate the same god creating male and female humans.
There was quite a bit of differences as to how and when this was accomplished.
Straggler writes:
Both refer to this same god making heaven and Earth.
No Genesis 1:1 has God creating the heaven and the earth. The story in Genesis 1:2-27 has creation of water creatures and mankind in the image of God. It also has vegetation from seed that was in the ground. So the only thing created was water creatures and mankind. It does not say how many were created it only said He created them male and female. There could have been a 1000 or more.
Straggler writes:
Both refer to this god creating the other animals.
No only one in Genesis 2:4-25 has the creation of animals as they were formed from the ground.
In the account in Genesis 1:2-27 the animals was called forth after their kind no creation involved.
Each story has mankind male and female.
Each story has creatures.
Each story has vegetation.
That is the only similarities.
In both stories they got there differently.
Straggler writes:
Then you get the details of what order things were made in and where exactly these creations were placed initially. Only someone who considers the bible to be inerrant would see this as anything but two contradictory creation myths rather than the convuluted sequential mess you have convinced yourself of.
But I am approaching these two stories as written in the KJV Bible as the absolute truth.
I am affirming there are two different stories, one in chapter 1:2-31, and one in 2:4-25.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Straggler, posted 05-24-2010 6:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2010 5:38 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 148 by purpledawn, posted 05-25-2010 7:35 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 142 of 607 (561984)
05-24-2010 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Peg
05-24-2010 7:36 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
No, i dont realise that. How do you know the earth always had light shining on it?
First of all your reading comprehension is getting worse. I never made that statement. But I will since you assumed I had.
But first let me clarify what I was saying. It is now dark outside of my house, except for the artificial lighting and the stars in the sky and the moon reflecting sunlight. But on the opposite side of the world the sun is shinning whether it reaches the surface of the earth or not.
Is there such a thing as true darkness?
Aaron Romanowsky, grad student,Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics writes:
The answer is: no, not in this universe. Our universe is flooded
with radiation (light) and matter (particles) of all descriptions
and energies, pretty much anywhere you go. But even if you could
imagine constructing a chamber which was shielded from all
radiation and energetic particles, and somehow shielded out all
neutrinos, and was cooled down to "absolute zero" so that the
walls of the chamber didn't emit thermal radiation -- even then,
if you looked around, you would see a tiny bit of light, which
comes from the production of "virtual pairs" of particles.
This is due to the nonzero "vacuum energy" -- the cold vacuum
of space is constantly seething with virtual particles which are
created in pairs, and annihilate each other again.
Source
Peg writes:
you are assuming that because there was a 'day 1' there must have been a light period before it,
I assume no such thing.
Peg writes:
yet that is not what Genesis says. Genesis 1:2 says 'the earth was formless and waste and there was darkness upon its surface'
I agree with this statement.
It was evening and the following morning was called the first day.
But Genesis 1:1 says In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
You have agreed the heaven and earth existed at Genesis 1:2
When was it created?
Genesis 2:4 says, These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
This verse says it was created in a day.
A day according to God equals a light period or a light period and a dark period.
Since Genesis 1:1 took place in a day and there was evening which is the end of a light period in Genesis 1:2 which at the end of that dark period with morning was declared the first day.
I draw the conclusion from this that there was a period of light, prior to Genesis 1:2. Because I can not explain the heaven and the earth being created in a day as recorded in Genesis 2:4 any other way.
Peg writes:
so the earth existed in darkness before God caused light to shine on it. Why are you saying it was the opposite?
Why are you assuming it had always been in darkness?
Especially since the heaven and the earth was created in a day.
Which is why I say what I say is because the KJV Bible says in Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
There had to be a light period for it to be called day, that the creation of the heavens and the earth took place in.
Peg writes:
so according to whats written, the 'geneological annals' were in regard to earth and heaven...not people. We have geneological annals of mans history and it includes the names of all the decendents of Adam which shows that it is speaking about human decendents....but in this instance, it is speaking about the earth and the description of the creative days ARE the geneological annals.
But you don't have the generations of the man formed from the dust of the earth in Genesis 2:7 nor do you have the generations of Cain and all his descendants.
What you do have is the generations of the man created in the image/likness of God in Genesis 1:27.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Peg writes:
Why would he do that? Whats so wrong with the earth that it needs to be destroyed and a new one created?
Thanks for the complement but I don't deserve to be thought of as someone who knows the mind of God. All I have is what is written in the Book He left us and much of it has been messed with by mankind with their personal beliefs.
Peter writes:
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
John writes:
Revelation Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Peg writes:
I dont want to sound argumentative here, but Isaiahs prophecy was written over 150 before Cyrus' was even born...Isaiah had long died before the propecy was fulfilled, so no, it wasnt addressed to Cyrus and he had no idea that it even existed. He was used by God to free the jews from their captivity, but he certainly didnt know he was fulfilling a prophecy about himself.
Isaiah writes:
45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
Should I cut out this verse out of my Bible as it says it was addressed to Cyrus regardless of your assertions.
Peg writes:
(Its because of these sorts of prophecies that the jews were able to identify true prophets and this is how they knew if a writing was from God or not.)
The prophecies I have seen come to pass in my lifetime has convinced me that the Bible is the Word of God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Peg, posted 05-24-2010 7:36 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Peg, posted 05-25-2010 12:24 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 143 of 607 (561986)
05-24-2010 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by purpledawn
05-24-2010 8:40 PM


Re: Affirm - Confirm
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
You can't even acknowledge that I'm also saying they are two different stories.
I am sorry I have not acknowledged this as of yet. I knew you was agreeing but just never mentioned it.
I hereby formally acknowledge that purpledawn agrees that there is two stories in Genesis chapter 1 and 2.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by purpledawn, posted 05-24-2010 8:40 PM purpledawn has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 149 of 607 (562064)
05-25-2010 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Peg
05-25-2010 12:24 AM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
i accept that the hebrew word Yom also means a 'period of time' or an 'age' or an 'eon' so i dont have a problem with the universe being created in a 'day'
Would that day be a period of light or a period of darkness?
Peg writes:
Its not a literal 24 hour day. Its an age....and unspecified length of time.
If it was an uninterrupted unspecified period of light that could be considered a day.
If darkness came that would be evening and that is exactly what we find in Genesis 1:2.
Peg writes:
The scripture you quoted shows that the man and woman created in chpt 1 is the same man and woman named Adam and Eve in chpt 2 and their decendents are listed in chpt 5.
What scriptures show they are the same people?
Genesis writes:
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
God said Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. This before mankind was created male and female.
Then God created mankind in His image/likeness male and female. verse 27
In verse 28 God blessed them.
He told them to be fruitful and multiply.
He told them to replenish the earth and subdue it.
He told them to have dominion of creatures on earth.
In verse 28 God told them they could eat the fruit of every tree.
There is no command not to eat from a certain tree.
Genesis writes:
2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
This man in verse 7 was formed from the dust of the ground before any plants or creatures.
No where does it say he was created in the image/likeness of God.
Then God planted a garden.
Then God made to grow out of the ground vegetation.
Genesis writes:
2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
God placed this man in the garden He had planted to dress it.
He told this man he could eat the fruit of all trees except the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Then God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air out of the ground.
This man named the animals.
After all this God took a rib from the man and made a woman who became flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone, his wife.
Peg writes:
I'm failing to understand how you come to the conclusion that these people are different people.
It is simple to me that they can not be the same people. The details do not match.
A man that is formed from the dust of the ground before any vegetation, creatures, and woman can not be the same man who was created in the image/likeness0 of God after all vegetation and all creatures. at the same time as the woman.
It amazes me what information you used to decided they are the same man.
The only thread you have to hang on is that they are both called Adam.
But the fact is that neither of the men was named Adam.
adam is the transliteration of the Hebrew word which means man, or mankind.
Peg writes:
well you seem to know enough to be able to proclaim that he is going to destroy the earth. If he has revealed such a major event in the bible then surely he has revealed WHY he would do such a thing. He always informed the isrealites as to why something bad was going to happen, so surely he would do so with this event also.
Geeze I am not that old and my name is not Peter/John. IOW I did not write the book of 1 Peter nor did I write Revelation.
Peter is the one who declared it was going to melt with fervent heat.
John is the one who said it was going to pass away and there would be a new heaven and a new earth which would have no sea and would not need the light of the sun or the moon.
So why accuse me of declaring these things when all I was doing is repeating what peter and John said.
Peg writes:
you simply shouldnt be reading it as being 'addressed' to Cyrus. Like I said, it was written down over 150 years before Cyrus was even born, so how could it possibly be addressed to him?
Well the first verse declares it was addressed to Cyrus. I don't care if it was 2000 years before Cyrus was born.
John 3:16, 17, 18 was addressed to me 'whosoever' almost 2000 years ago. Does it not apply to me?
I would like to end this post with a question I have asked before.
If there was no light before Genesis 1:3 how did all the vegetation grow that produced all the peat that produced all the oil, natural gas and coal we are finding and using today?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Peg, posted 05-25-2010 12:24 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Peg, posted 05-25-2010 9:36 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 150 of 607 (562080)
05-25-2010 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Straggler
05-25-2010 5:26 AM


Re: Two Charles Darwins?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
It shows that insisting that we look at two pieces of writing, focusing solely on differences in wording and then declaring that they must be completely unrelated because there is not 100% agreement is kinda dum.
Well if you had been talking about one book that had one story on one page and another story on the next page you might have a point.
But since you were talking about two different books I don't see the connection.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2010 5:26 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2010 5:35 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 151 of 607 (562086)
05-25-2010 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Straggler
05-25-2010 5:38 AM


Re: Two Earths?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Why would you do anything so silly?
Because that is what I chose to debate in this thread as I specifically laid out in the OP.
Straggler writes:
"So why do you think the "Earth" in each story is the same place?
Because there was a heaven and a earth that was created in the beginning and populated as described in the history of the day in which God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 2:4-25.
The same earth existed covered with water in Genesis 1:2. The following verses through verse 27 describes how the earth was repaired and made inhabitable again and the repopulating of the earth. With the creation of water creatures and mankind in the image/likeness of God added as new creations.
Straggler writes:
So these other humans could still exist on this other Earth couldn't they?
Well the man was told if he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge he would die that day.
That man nor any of his descendants existed in the evening we find in Genesis 1:2 as the earth was covered in water. If any survived they had turned into water creatures.
Straggler writes:
After all no mention of how the other humans died out has ever been made has it? So on what basis do you conclude that they don't still exist on this other Earth?
The only two I can find their death recorded was Able who was killed by Cain and the unnamed young man Lamech killed.
But none existed at Genesis 1:2.
Archeologist keep digging up bones that belonged to people that lived a long time ago. But these people was not modern man.
Peter is the only one who mentioned the demise of the old world.
Peter writes:
2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Some think Peter was talking about the flood of Noah. But Noah did not perish. The world being overflowed with water Peter is talking about had no survivors.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2010 5:38 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2010 5:47 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 154 of 607 (562101)
05-25-2010 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by purpledawn
05-25-2010 7:35 AM


Re: Truth and Reality
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
Was it the creation of the Hebrew Nation (people, land, government)?
Was it the creation of the land and sky known to the Hebrew people?
Was it a simple parallel story to the temple creation?
None of these happened in the beginning. They had to happen after the heaven and the earth was created and furnished as described in the two stories found in chapter 1 and chapter 2.
purpledawn writes:
Was it the creation of the planet and space as we know it today?
This is the only logical conclusion as the heaven and the earth had to begin before anything else could exist.
purpledawn writes:
Words are useless if we don't understand how they are being used. Meanings change or are lost over time. Verbal stories were usually updated as they pass from one generation to the next; but once they were put to paper, they were frozen in that time.
But Moses was told by God to write in a book all the thing that he had been told by God including all the things the people heard God say to Moses. These were to be placed in the side of the ark and rehearsed to the people during the seventh year sabbath.
purpledawn writes:
If the audience understood
What the audience understood in those days God to be saying then did not make a bit of difference as it does not make a bit of difference today.
God said what He said even if Moses wrote it down wrong. Or if the scribes changed the wording around to suit their biases. Or as our new translations come out pretty regular now.
It's man's responsibility to get it right.
That is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us in all truth.
Since today we have so many people that know not God the Father, God the Son or the Holy Spirit must less have the Holy Spirit abiding in them to lead them and guide them in all truth mankind is really messing up what God gave to Moses, the Prophets, The Apostles and the Disciples.
The Bible is foolishness to those who have not the Holy Spirit to lead them and guide them in all truth. 1 Corthians 2:14
purpledawn writes:
Yes, the line says that God created the heaven and the earth; but what did that mean to the original audience?
Rather than to jump through all the hoops to make it say what someone wants it to say, wouldn't it be better to just take it as God said what He meant and meant what He said.
purpledawn writes:
Long long ago, God created ...
A very long time ago in the beginning, God created the:
Heaven shamayim the abode of the stars.
Earth 'erets land, earth.
I think I will stick with the meanings that was around for thousands of years rather than from our newly enlightened educated elite who know better than anyone else what was meant.
I wonder what book they use to get what they think the people understood the words to mean. The only place I can come up with is their imagination.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by purpledawn, posted 05-25-2010 7:35 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by purpledawn, posted 05-26-2010 8:24 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 155 of 607 (562102)
05-25-2010 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Straggler
05-25-2010 5:47 PM


Re: Two Earths?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
It would be entirely compatible with scripture if the first humans were created on one Earth and still existed today and the second existed on this earth wouldn't it?
Why would the story about another earth be included in a book for the present earth?
If you are hinting at other universes with earths in them I would not disagree that they exist. They may exist or they may not exist. Since God is all powerful He could have created 1 or millions of universes I would not put a limit on what God could do.
But that is not what I am affirming. I am affirming that there is a story of creation in chapter 1 and a different story of creation in chapter 2.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2010 5:47 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2010 6:53 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 161 of 607 (562180)
05-26-2010 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Straggler
05-25-2010 6:53 PM


Re: Two Earths?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
To inform us of these other "humans" and this other "earth" such that we can seek them out. Thus meaning that SETI is gods work.
What would be the point if we can't get there from here?
Straggler writes:
Can you refute my two earths affirmation based on what was written in the first 2 chapters of Genesis?
Sure.
But that would not make any difference to you as your aim is to cause confusion, and derail the debate.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2010 6:53 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 05-26-2010 11:21 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 164 of 607 (562193)
05-26-2010 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Peg
05-25-2010 9:36 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
figuratively, we could say Gods creative works began in a period of darkness until all that he had accomplished was clearly visible.
You could figuratively say anything your imagination could come up with.
I did not set out to debate what you or anyone else could figuratively say.
In Message 1 I said:
ICANT writes:
In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2.
In this thread the KJV, LXX and Hebrew text will be used.
The Bible will be the final authority as that is what we will be discussing.
I am trying to examine and find out exactly what is written in the KJV Bible and have gotten very little input from anyone.
You keep preaching your belief of yom. PD keeps bringing in her new found covenant creation beliefs. Straggler just keeps throwing up smoke bombs.
It would be great if someone would actually debate what the subject was set up to debate.
Peg writes:
literally, i dont think the movement of any planet in the universe would have any effect on where God is sitting.
Where did this statement come from? What does it have to do with the discussion?
Peg writes:
God is said to be surrounded in light always, so he would never experience a 'day and night' in the literal sense.
I don't know who said that.
But John said Jesus said "God is Light".
1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Peg writes:
So the only logical conclusion is that the people created on the 6th day, were the end of gods creations....
I agree that mankind who were created male and female was the last of God's creation so far as He rested from His creation works.
Peg writes:
they were Adam and Eve as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 19:4 "Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female (gen 1:27)
That statement is Peg's assumption.
Mankind that was created male and female in Genesis 1:27 was called mankind or Adam as you prefer.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Had the word Adam been translated rather than transliterated in 5:1 it would have read mankind.
Male and female was call Adam in 5:2.
Conclusion these verses are referring to mankind. There are no proper names given to either of these people.
To assert Jesus is referring to these people in Matthew 19:4 is a long stretch.
There is nowhere mentioned in Genesis 1:2-Genesis 2:3 anything about Eve.
Eve appears 4 times in the Bible.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
The man that was formed from the dust of the Ground in Genesis 2:7 that said:
Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Called this woman Eve in Genesis 3:20.
Therefore Jesus is talking about the man and woman created in Genesis 2:7 and 2:22 not the ones created in Genesis 1:27.
Peg writes:
If Jesus beleived that the people created in Gen 1 were any different to the people created in Gen 2, there is no way he would have spoke of them as the same people.
Well Jesus did not refer to the people created in Genesis 1:27.
He was talking about the people in Genesis 2:7 and 2:22 and quoting what the man created in 2:7 had said.
Peg writes:
the physical evidence disagrees with you.
What physical evidence?
Peg writes:
There were animals existing on the earth before man showed up.
According to what?
Peg writes:
So the first account in genesis is the account of the chronological creation,
Which account are you calling the first?
The one that is the history of the heaven and the earth in the day the Lord God created the heaven and the earth which was in the beginning?
OR
The story of things that happened some 6000+ years ago?
Peg writes:
whereas the account in chpt 2 is looking specifically at mankind. The reason for that is because moses was describing the 'fall' of mankind from perfection and from their garden home.
How can the account of what happened in the beginning be an explanation of what happened 6,000+ years ago?
Peg writes:
have you taken into account the words of the prophets Isaiah, of King Solomon and of the psalmists who tell us that the earth will NEVER be destroyed? That it will exist forever...that Gods purpose for it will be fulfilled and he will never allow it to be destroyed???
Where did ICANT, John, or Peter say the earth was going to be destroyed?
Peter said it was going to melt with fervent heat.
Science tells us this is how it began at trillions of degrees.
John then says God is going to create a New Heaven and Earth.
In the beginning He had to use material to create the universe and earth. When He creates the new ones He will use existing material.
Energy can not be destroyed. The form can only be changed. That is the reason you will exist eternally.
Peg writes:
The 'days' of genesis are not 24 hours....the physical evidence and even the use of the word in the account shows that its not a literal 24 hour day.
Which you keep asserting in every thread that mentions time. You have to perform all kinds of imaginative jumping through hoops to back up your assertions rather than take God's definition.
God defined what constituted a day. in Genesis 1:5 where God said:
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Did God call a light period day? Yes/No
Did God call darkness night? Yes/No
Did God call a combination of light period and dark period the first day? Yes/No
Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
This day ended with the beginning of a light period which ended at evening with the beginning of a dark period which ended with the beginning of a light period and was called the second day? Yes/No
Genesis 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
This day ended with the beginning of a light period which ended at evening with the beginning of a dark period which ended with the beginning of a light period and was called the third day? Yes/No
Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth
This day ended with the beginning of a light period which ended at evening with the beginning of a dark period which ended with the beginning of a light period and was called the fourth day? Yes/No
Genesis 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
This day ended with the beginning of a light period which ended at evening with the beginning of a dark period which ended with the beginning of a light period and was called the fifth day? Yes/No
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
This day ended with the beginning of a light period which ended at evening with the beginning of a dark period which ended with the beginning of a light period and was called the sixth day? Yes/No
Do you disagree that this is what is written in the KJV Bible.
Here is what is written in the New World Translation
5 And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.
8 And God began to call the expanse Heaven. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a second day
13 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a third day.
19 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a fourth day.
31 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day.
Your bible says it came to be evening that means the light period closed.
It then says that it came to be morning the beginning of the next day (light period)
Do you disagree with what is written in your Bible?
If you do why?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Peg, posted 05-25-2010 9:36 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Straggler, posted 05-26-2010 3:09 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 170 by Peg, posted 05-26-2010 8:47 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 166 of 607 (562198)
05-26-2010 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Straggler
05-26-2010 11:21 AM


Re: Two Earths?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Straggler writes:
Can you refute my two earths affirmation based on what was written in the first 2 chapters of Genesis?
Sure.
Go on then. I don't think you can.
There is much to do about the word translated was in Genesis 1:2.
The Hebrew word hayah that is translated was in Genesis 1:2 means 1) to be, become, come to pass,
This word is translated 2 times (out of 72 times of use in Genesis) as was. Genesis 1:2 and Genesis 3:1
I have no excuse for the translators translating this word was. It in no way means something in the past tense.
An examinations of the Hebrews words in Genesis 1:2
'erets definition, earth and was translated 'and the earth', 'and the' is provided by the translators.
hayah definition, 1) to be, become, come to pass, translated, was.
tohuw definition 1) formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness, translated, without form.
bohuw definition 1) emptiness, void, waste, translated, and void.
choshek definition 1) darkness, obscurity, translated, and darkness.
paniym definition 1) face, translated, was upon the face.
tĕhowm definition 1) deep, depths, deep places, abyss, the deep, sea, translated, of the deep.
ruwach definition 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit, translated, and the spirit.
'elohiym definition 1) rulers, judges, divine ones, translated, of God.
rachaph definition 2) (Piel) to hover (verb in piel mode) translated moved.
`al definition 1) upon, on the ground of, according to, on account of, on behalf of, translated, upon.
paniym definition 1) face, translated, was upon the face.
mayim definition 1) water, waters, translated, of the waters.
So in Genesis 1:2 we have.
Earth become formless, empty, dark face, deep, spirit, divine ones, hover upon face waters.
This tells me the earth created in Genesis 1:1 had become formless and empty and darkness covered it.
Therefore it could not be another earth in another universe but the one created in Genesis 1:1
I know this will not meet your approval as it does not meet your worldview but it is what is recorded in the Hebrew texts.
But as I said in the OP I would use the Hebrew.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 05-26-2010 11:21 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Straggler, posted 05-27-2010 12:26 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 167 of 607 (562201)
05-26-2010 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Straggler
05-26-2010 3:09 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
But what is it that you want to debate? Your literal interpretation of the assumption that these two portions of the bible are inerrant and conflicting thus requiring two stories? The highly specific particulars of the two stories that you think reconcile these seeming contradictions that ignore all the other possible interpretations that could be made?
Why do scientist perform experiments?
They examine evidence to determine what the story is that is being told by what they see.
I am trying to determine what the story is that is being told in Genesis chapter 1 and 2. using what is written in the KJV Bible, along with the LXX and Hebrew text.
I am not trying to prove it to be right or wrong only what the KJV Bible has recorded in it.
Now if what I am saying is wrong why don't you take my verse by verse examination of the text and refute it. Not what you think I said but what the text actually says.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Straggler, posted 05-26-2010 3:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2010 8:08 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 182 by Straggler, posted 05-27-2010 1:27 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 183 of 607 (562273)
05-27-2010 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Peg
05-26-2010 8:47 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
why is the KJV the authority?
That is what is set in the Op as the limit of discussion along with the Hebrew text and the LXX.
Those texts are to be the final authority concerning this thread.
I am affirming there is a creation story in Genesis 1:2-27. This story took place some 6000+ years ago.
I am affirming there is a creation story in Genesis 2:4-25 that claims to be the history of the events that took place in the day the Lord God created the heaven and the earth. This story took place in the beginning.
Peg writes:
Im sorry, im deliberatly not commenting further on most of your post only because we keep going over and over the same points.
I don't blame you if I was you and did not have an answer I would try to change the subject from what is stated in the OP.
Peg writes:
i think you get the picture. All hebrew names had a meaning and just because Adam means 'mankind' does not mean that he was not an individual called by this name.
To set the record straight Adam does not mean mankind.
The word adam is the translation of the Hebrew word which means man or mankind.
You do understand that transliteration is substituting the English letter for the corresponding Hebrew letter don't you.
Peg writes:
Even the christians refered to him as the first man and the one who introduced sin into the world.
I believe that the first man who was formed from the dust of the earth before any other life form, plant or flesh of any kind in the beginning, is responsible for mankind being already condemned as John tells us in:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Peg writes:
Jesus said they were the ones created 'in the beginning'
Jesus did refer to the man and woman created in the beginning when talking about marriage and He also quoted what the man said when God brought the woman he had made from his rib, concerning her being bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh in Genesis 2:24.
Peg writes:
quite a contrast.
Jesus was talking about the man and woman created in the beginning.
The beginning took place in Genesis 1:1.
Genesis 2:4 says it is the history of the day God created the heaven and the earth.
The man that was formed from the dust of the earth and the woman formed from his rib took place in this day.
The people who were created in Genesis 1:27 was not created in the same day as the heaven and the earth was created.
They were created on what is called day six in Genesis 1:27 a long time after the beginning which took place in Genesis 1:1.
Peg writes:
ICANT writes:
How can the account of what happened in the beginning be an explanation of what happened 6,000+ years ago?
Its not.
The earth was created 'in the beginning' which was during the time God also made the heavens/universe.
So you agree that the heavens and the earth was created in the beginning. Good.
The history of the day of that beginning is found in Genesis 2:4-24.
In that history is a story of the creation of man, a garden, vegetation, creatures, and a woman, in that order.
You say this is the story of mankind that was created in Genesis 1:27.
I ask again how can events that took place in the beginning be an explanation of what happened in Genesis 1:27 which was the sixth day of a story that began in 1:2?
Peg writes:
6,000 odd years ago was when he created the first man and planted the garden.
There is no scripture that supports this assertion.
The man and woman created in Genesis 1:27 was never placed in a garden nor were they forbidden to eat fruit of any tree. In fact they were told they could eat from all trees.
That alone eliminates these people and the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 being the same people.
Peg writes:
But before that time was the preparation of the earth, the creation of the atmospher, seas, land, seasons, animals, vegetation....they all happened in the previous 6 days. Toward the very end of the 6th day Adam was created and then Eve as the very final creation.
Before what time?
Peg writes:
As i said, we view the 'evening and morning' as a figurative 'evening and morning'
You got a mouse in your pocket you are referring to as we?
My New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures has no footnotes or explanations in it that tells me this is figuratively and not literally.
Peg writes:
In Gen 2, all six days are called ONE day. So it cant be anything but figurative.
Where does Genesis 2:4 claim to be a record of what took place in the six days you refer to?
It simply says it is the history of the day God created the heaven and the earth.
The heaven and the earth existed at Genesis 1:2.
Therefore it is not addressing anything that took place from Genesis 1:2 which God designated as evening.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Peg, posted 05-26-2010 8:47 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Peg, posted 05-27-2010 7:22 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 184 of 607 (562275)
05-27-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by purpledawn
05-27-2010 8:08 AM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
These aren't the same. For the first, all we have to do is read a KJV Bible We can see what is written. .
Not according to what has been posted in response to what I affirmed verse by verse throughout this thread.
Peg writes:
In the second, we have to understand what the writer was telling his audience to know what story is being told. Yes, we have to understand what it meant in their day, not ours
Why do we have to understand what the ancient audience understood the writer to mean, to be able to understand what is written in the KJV Bible?
All we have to know what story is being told is what is written in the KJV Bible.
Again I am not trying to prove this is correct or incorrect that would be another thread, to determine if the KJV was a correct interpretation of the texts available.
I have been presenting the same things I presented in this thread since I was 10 years old. I have been told by some of the best educated people in the world that I am crazy. I have been told I am too ignorant to understand what I am talking about. Most everybody that I have debated this issue with keeps telling me the story in Genesis 2:4 is an explanation of what took place in Genesis 1:2-27
What no one addresses is the differences in the two stories. They just want to put it in a blender and make one story out of it with no explanation for the differences. Just like I have encountered here.
What I am trying to do is settle in my mind did that 10 year old boy that first spoke of this know what he was talking about that he got from reading the KJV Bible. Or have I become so obsessed with the story after 60 years that I have lost all sight of objectivity and can not see what the text says.
That is the reason I would like for someone, anyone to take the verse by verse affirmations I made and refute them if possible. No one in 60 years has tried.
purpledawn writes:
This article is interesting and doesn't even bring up the P word. It has Moses as the author and shouldn't harm your belief system. Making Sense of Genesis 1
Pretty good article although I disagree with much of it. I did notice one thing.
He pointed out that most Bible scholars come to the study of Genesis 1 with preconceived ideas about what it says. That helps me a little as that 10 year old boy could not have had any preconceived ideas as the only thing he had ever heard preached was Jesus died for your sins and if you don't trust Him for salvation you will burn in hell for eternity.
That is about the limit of the preachers of the 40's with very little education to help them. In fact I was a fifth grade student at the time and all the preachers were 3rd grade or below.
The only thing I remember hearing about creation was some of them would say "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". As far as they were concerned that settled it.
purpledawn writes:
It hits on the same thing I've been saying, modern meanings don't help us understand an ancient writing. We have to try and understand what the audience would have understood in their time.
Well the KJV Bible was written in 16ll. I have a dictionary of that day of the words used in the KJV Bible. I do have an original 1611 KJV Bible.
Not only that I did study Hebrew in college so I did not have to take what somebody else said the original words said.
purpledawn writes:
It isn't a factual scientific account of the creation of the planet.
I actually believe that it is the actual story of creation and agrees with the scientific evidence available. But that is another thread.
The first thing I need to do is find out if the two stories are different. Then determine if the Bible is true. Then I could determine if it agrees with Science.
purpledawn writes:
They were written for ancient Hebrews to understand. So we have to figure out what the ancient Hebrews understood.
God is the same forever therefore the story written for the Hebrews was also written for us today.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2010 8:08 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2010 3:49 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 191 by Peg, posted 05-27-2010 7:27 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 193 by purpledawn, posted 05-28-2010 9:57 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 201 by purpledawn, posted 05-30-2010 7:54 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 186 of 607 (562278)
05-27-2010 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by AZPaul3
05-27-2010 9:58 AM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Paul,
AZPaul3 writes:
I also believe his interpretation has a great deal of merit from a modern literalist stance. I say that he has succeeded in showing to his fellow literalists what a strict modern literalist interpretation of KJV could/should be.
Though I do not think this was ICANT's intention,
Thanks for the encouragement on me suceeding.
The problem is I don't know if I have suceeded in convincing the person that is most important to what is written in the KJV Bible is the best literal interpretation that can be. That person is me.
I been chewing on these passages for over 60 years and still have questions. That is why I keep trying to get someone to take the presentation verse by verse and refute what I presented.
As I have said it makes no difference whether it is true or false, a myth or whatever. Just is it what what is written in the text.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by AZPaul3, posted 05-27-2010 9:58 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Straggler, posted 05-27-2010 4:56 PM ICANT has not replied

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