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Author Topic:   Is body hair a functionless vestige?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5700
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 91 of 143 (611614)
04-09-2011 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Robert Byers
04-08-2011 9:10 PM


Research might help
YOu probably should research your assertions a little before presenting them.

In fact i would say its logical that women have greater hair on the head relative to their body size because they need to keep the head dryer because of lesser body heat. Wet hair threatens them more then big guys. Now perhaps again its useless but it might be usefull.

Any evidence women have more hair? How does more wet hait hair keep a body warmer?

OH and maybe you should learn how to search on google.
Scientists debunk the myth that you lose most heat through your head


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Robert Byers, posted 04-08-2011 9:10 PM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Robert Byers, posted 04-12-2011 1:10 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Ken Fabos
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 51
From: Australia
Joined: 05-09-2010


Message 92 of 143 (611662)
04-09-2011 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Robert Byers
04-08-2011 3:40 AM


Robert, a bit of speculation is fine but I'm not impressed so far. If patterns of hair growth respond to wetness of climates we'd see such patterns in geographic distributions. We don't. That hair has some capability to wick water away from the skin has some basis but an innate ability for hair patterns to 'respond' hasn't been shown; I believe that our characteristics evolved but the specifics of how we came to have the hair functions and patterns we do has not been (may never be) clearly explained. To what extent it's chance and how much it's adaptation interests me - I happen to think our body hair function very well as part of our tactile sensory system and extreme sensitivity of fine hairs around eyes and ears suggest some degree of adaptation. I don't mind indulging in a bit of speculation about it, but I don't think this response to wetness idea, as presented, is anything that throws any light on it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Robert Byers, posted 04-08-2011 3:40 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Robert Byers, posted 04-12-2011 1:22 AM Ken Fabos has responded

  
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 93 of 143 (611889)
04-12-2011 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by NoNukes
04-09-2011 8:10 AM


Whales hair would simply be a remnant from a earlier land life.
Its logical from my stance to see the smaller sex, so less heat producing, as needing more protection from getting wet on the head. A major area of heat loss potential.
Men likewise would have more hair on the face as we were always out more in the land and the climate. So it follows our face hair follows our lifestyle.
It all works fine with the simple conclusion that hair is for dryness and not warmth at least in the first stages.
Underarm hair is just a reflection of the body noticing the wteness from the sweat. Again useless but over sensivitive.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by NoNukes, posted 04-09-2011 8:10 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 04-12-2011 3:00 AM Robert Byers has responded
 Message 105 by Jon, posted 04-15-2011 1:51 AM Robert Byers has responded

    
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 94 of 143 (611890)
04-12-2011 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Theodoric
04-09-2011 10:01 AM


Re: Research might help
Theodoric writes:

YOu probably should research your assertions a little before presenting them.

In fact i would say its logical that women have greater hair on the head relative to their body size because they need to keep the head dryer because of lesser body heat. Wet hair threatens them more then big guys. Now perhaps again its useless but it might be usefull.

Any evidence women have more hair? How does more wet hait hair keep a body warmer?

OH and maybe you should learn how to search on google.
Scientists debunk the myth that you lose most heat through your head

Debunk all they want its very true heat loss from the head is important. Thus warm hats are important. anyways its still a sensitivity to it.

Women do have more hair and more powerful hair then men. Especially relative to the smaller size of their head.
The hair is to keep the head from the impact of the wetness which is a major problem for warmth in nature.
Wet hair is a temporary matter. its just the body reacting to the threat of cold water. Not reacting to wet hair which it doesn't notice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 04-09-2011 10:01 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 04-12-2011 2:05 PM Robert Byers has not yet responded

    
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 95 of 143 (611892)
04-12-2011 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Ken Fabos
04-09-2011 6:47 PM


Ken Fabos writes:

Robert, a bit of speculation is fine but I'm not impressed so far. If patterns of hair growth respond to wetness of climates we'd see such patterns in geographic distributions. We don't. That hair has some capability to wick water away from the skin has some basis but an innate ability for hair patterns to 'respond' hasn't been shown; I believe that our characteristics evolved but the specifics of how we came to have the hair functions and patterns we do has not been (may never be) clearly explained. To what extent it's chance and how much it's adaptation interests me - I happen to think our body hair function very well as part of our tactile sensory system and extreme sensitivity of fine hairs around eyes and ears suggest some degree of adaptation. I don't mind indulging in a bit of speculation about it, but I don't think this response to wetness idea, as presented, is anything that throws any light on it.

i don't agree with sensory matters as the reason for hair.
The first conclusion in investigation should be What is the hair doing!
hair certainly keeps creatures warm. Body tempature is very important in nature.
If temp matters then observation shows that getting wet is a major threat.
In fact getting wet in a warm climate is a threat. so its reasonable to conclude that hair at least is also just for to keep one dry. nOt warm but dry.
therefore this would explain the unneeded areas of hair on our bodies. tHe hair is always in areas of sweat or episodic sweat.
This would include ears, eyes, etc. Any opening is a threat to a cooler temp and so a threat that if it gets wet it will all the more make it too cool.
Again its probably a unneeded over sensitivity of the body. Its useless.
Yet it follows a creationist theme of the body being made to adapt to needs including a innate failure to do it right. The bodies are made from a great design and not the result of happanchance or evolutionary speculation.
Simple answers can explain much in nature.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Ken Fabos, posted 04-09-2011 6:47 PM Ken Fabos has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Taq, posted 04-12-2011 1:00 PM Robert Byers has responded
 Message 99 by AZPaul3, posted 04-12-2011 2:59 PM Robert Byers has not yet responded
 Message 100 by Ken Fabos, posted 04-12-2011 6:11 PM Robert Byers has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9317
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 96 of 143 (611905)
04-12-2011 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Robert Byers
04-12-2011 1:04 AM


Whales hair would simply be a remnant from a earlier land life.

Interesting. Apparently, you do believe in evolution of a sort.

Byers writes:

Its logical from my stance to see the smaller sex, so less heat producing, as needing more protection from getting wet on the head.

You have not even established that women have more hair on their heads than men.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Robert Byers, posted 04-12-2011 1:04 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Robert Byers, posted 04-15-2011 12:56 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 97 of 143 (611967)
04-12-2011 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Robert Byers
04-12-2011 1:22 AM


hair certainly keeps creatures warm. Body tempature is very important in nature.

You should take a trip to Africa sometime. You will find that keeping the body cool is much more important, especially to hunters. Humans evolved a very interesting way of hunting. We chase animals during the heat of the day until they collapse from heat exhaustion. We don't collapse because we sweat profusely. Cooling the body is a much more important adapation for humans than what little warmth our hair provides.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Robert Byers, posted 04-12-2011 1:22 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Robert Byers, posted 04-15-2011 12:59 AM Taq has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5700
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 98 of 143 (611979)
04-12-2011 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Robert Byers
04-12-2011 1:10 AM


Re: Research might help
Debunk all they want its very true heat loss from the head is important. Thus warm hats are important. anyways its still a sensitivity to it.

Women do have more hair and more powerful hair then men. Especially relative to the smaller size of their head.
The hair is to keep the head from the impact of the wetness which is a major problem for warmth in nature.
Wet hair is a temporary matter. its just the body reacting to the threat of cold water. Not reacting to wet hair which it doesn't notice.


DO you ahve any idea what evidence is? Why do you think we should blindly accept your assertions.

Is your motto this phrase?

Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Robert Byers, posted 04-12-2011 1:10 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3422
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 99 of 143 (611983)
04-12-2011 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Robert Byers
04-12-2011 1:22 AM


Investigation or Rectal Ejection?
i don't agree with sensory matters as the reason for hair.
The first conclusion in investigation should be What is the hair doing!

What the hair is doing is moving in response to stimuli transferring hair movement and vibration via the shaft to sensory nerves within the skin.

Things called follicular nerves at the shaft base are super sensitive to vibrations of the shaft. These are the facts derived by real investigation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Robert Byers, posted 04-12-2011 1:22 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
Ken Fabos
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 51
From: Australia
Joined: 05-09-2010


Message 100 of 143 (612023)
04-12-2011 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Robert Byers
04-12-2011 1:22 AM


"...What is the hair doing!"
It demonstrably does have a sensory function. It does other things too, including (in places) wick moisture away from the skin, protect from UV exposure and provide insulation but it definitely does tactile sensitivity as well and it does it extremely well. All hairs have this capability but around eyes and ears the sensitivity is notable (leaving aside eyelashes which I'd say are clearly an extreme adaptation for tactile sensitivity) - the nearly invisibly fine vellus hairs on skin around these vital organs alert us to the presence of very small insects by their sensitivity - my own experience is the resulting sensations are so strong it takes a conscious effort not to rub or scratch. I'd say that this is a useful function and, around eyes and ears, a far more useful function than the ability to wick away water.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Robert Byers, posted 04-12-2011 1:22 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Robert Byers, posted 04-15-2011 1:47 AM Ken Fabos has not yet responded

  
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 101 of 143 (612364)
04-15-2011 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by NoNukes
04-12-2011 3:00 AM


NoNukes writes:

Whales hair would simply be a remnant from a earlier land life.

Interesting. Apparently, you do believe in evolution of a sort.

Byers writes:

Its logical from my stance to see the smaller sex, so less heat producing, as needing more protection from getting wet on the head.

You have not even established that women have more hair on their heads than men.

I've always understood they have more hair or hair holes relative to the size of their heads compared to men. Then also a stronger quality.

Yes i insist marine mammals were just post flood creatures that took to the water. nOt by evolution by mutation/selection but innate triggers to quickly adapt .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 04-12-2011 3:00 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Theodoric, posted 04-15-2011 12:15 PM Robert Byers has not yet responded
 Message 108 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2011 2:43 PM Robert Byers has responded

    
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 102 of 143 (612366)
04-15-2011 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Taq
04-12-2011 1:00 PM


Taq writes:

hair certainly keeps creatures warm. Body tempature is very important in nature.

You should take a trip to Africa sometime. You will find that keeping the body cool is much more important, especially to hunters. Humans evolved a very interesting way of hunting. We chase animals during the heat of the day until they collapse from heat exhaustion. We don't collapse because we sweat profusely. Cooling the body is a much more important adapation for humans than what little warmth our hair provides.

I agree our hair gives no warmth. however it does attempt to keep us dry. I see it as a quick reaction in a post flood world. I don't see hair as doing much unless for women it more keeps them from being too cooled in the climate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Taq, posted 04-12-2011 1:00 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Jon, posted 04-15-2011 1:51 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 04-15-2011 11:50 AM Robert Byers has responded

    
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 103 of 143 (612368)
04-15-2011 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Ken Fabos
04-12-2011 6:11 PM


Ken Fabos writes:

"...What is the hair doing!"
It demonstrably does have a sensory function. It does other things too, including (in places) wick moisture away from the skin, protect from UV exposure and provide insulation but it definitely does tactile sensitivity as well and it does it extremely well. All hairs have this capability but around eyes and ears the sensitivity is notable (leaving aside eyelashes which I'd say are clearly an extreme adaptation for tactile sensitivity) - the nearly invisibly fine vellus hairs on skin around these vital organs alert us to the presence of very small insects by their sensitivity - my own experience is the resulting sensations are so strong it takes a conscious effort not to rub or scratch. I'd say that this is a useful function and, around eyes and ears, a far more useful function than the ability to wick away water.

Its not impossible that hair helps to keep away bugs but hair in creatures is very clearly about body tempature.
First things first.
As you said hair is involved in dealing with moisture on the skin.
Yes. its trying to dry it away.
i see our hair as just a sensitive reaction but it does no good. so it better explains hair that hits areas, after puberty, where episodic sweating is a issue.

Its fine to see openings like eyes and ears needing to protect against bugs but these openings also are threatened by moisture which threatens cooling issues.
I never thought before it was to deal with biological intrusion. Maybe but i still think its the easier answer to see hair as a overly senstive reaction to a trigger for drying the area.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Ken Fabos, posted 04-12-2011 6:11 PM Ken Fabos has not yet responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 143 (612370)
04-15-2011 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Robert Byers
04-15-2011 12:59 AM


Like a Rock
however it does attempt to keep us dry.

So far you haven't offered a shred of evidence that this is somehow the 'purpose' behind body hair. I noticed you said this:

quote:
Robert Byers in Message 80:

Again its worthless but indicates hair is just a reaction to keep one dry.


Is your only evidence that body hair has a purpose the 'fact' that it's worthless? That's really not the kind of 'rock solid analysis' you claim it to be.

I see it as a quick reaction in a post flood world.

Sorry, but there never was a Biblical Flood.

Jon


Love your enemies!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Robert Byers, posted 04-15-2011 12:59 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 143 (612371)
04-15-2011 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Robert Byers
04-12-2011 1:04 AM


Like a Rock - 2
Its logical from my stance to see the smaller sex, so less heat producing, as needing more protection from getting wet on the head. A major area of heat loss potential.

What is logical from your stance is complete nonsense from the stance of everyone else. It might help if you'd bother investigating the claims you attempt to rest your pseudo-theories on; if you did, you'd find that smaller people actually retain body heat better than bigger people. You also might find that outside of Whitey-ville, Canada, not all women have long hair and there are plenty of men who do.

Men likewise would have more hair on the face as we were always out more in the land and the climate. So it follows our face hair follows our lifestyle.

Again, more research would help prevent a lot of simple mistakes: men do not grow facial hair in all varieties of humans.

Jon


Love your enemies!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Robert Byers, posted 04-12-2011 1:04 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Robert Byers, posted 04-20-2011 2:48 AM Jon has responded

  
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