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Author Topic:   Genuine Puzzles In Biology?
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2719 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 94 of 153 (594176)
12-02-2010 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Stephen Push
11-07-2010 10:03 AM


Re: Amygdala & Fear
Hi, Stephen Push.
Stephen Push writes:
But our brains appear to be hardwired to recognize images of snakes and spiders.
I study spiders for a living. I don't study arachnophobia or spiders that are dangerous to humans, but I'm familiar enough with the topic and I've been a spectator in this debate for a couple years.
Spider bites can be annoying and painful, and so it makes sense for humans to develop behavioral aversions to them. But, to claim an evolutionary significance for arachnophobia requires spiders to have had a significant impact on human fitness, and I just don't see that as plausible.
  1. The Old World, where humans evolved, doesn't have any spiders that are known to have killed people, and only a handful that are known to cause significant health effects, although these are so uncommonly encountered by humans that bites are almost never reported.
  2. In Asia, where the most dangerous Old World spiders occur, people regularly eat spiders, so I don't see arachnophobia being a major component of human evolution there.
  3. The only spiders known to have caused fatalities (only four taxa) are native to Australia and the Americas.
The best explanation for arachnophobia is as a learned or cultural behavior. But, I have no idea about the causes and explanations for ophidiophobia (fear of snakes).

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Stephen Push, posted 11-07-2010 10:03 AM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by frako, posted 12-02-2010 12:46 PM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied
 Message 96 by bluescat48, posted 12-02-2010 3:23 PM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied
 Message 120 by Stephen Push, posted 12-06-2010 11:23 AM Blue Jay has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2719 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 115 of 153 (594700)
12-04-2010 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Taq
12-02-2010 3:50 PM


Re: Amygdala & Fear
Hi, Taq.
Taq writes:
We have patterns associated with danger hard wired into the most primitive portions of our brains.
Well, it's really not reasonable to suggest that spiders have been a big enough danger to our ancestors to have influenced human evolution.
Spider bites rarely noticeably influence an individual's biological fitness, so it's difficult to see how the specific fear of spiders would improve fitness predictably enough to make a difference. There may be more of a case to make for snakes, given the bigger and more predictable danger they pose, but I am completely out of my expertise there.
I suspect that the ability for pattern recognition, as a general cognitive trait, is hard-wired due to natural selection for danger avoidance; but the individual patterns that are recognized are not hard-wired.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Taq, posted 12-02-2010 3:50 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Itinerant Lurker, posted 12-04-2010 6:22 PM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2719 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 121 of 153 (595065)
12-06-2010 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Stephen Push
12-06-2010 11:23 AM


Re: Amygdala & Fear
Hi, Stephen.
Stephen Push writes:
I assume you are referring to extant species. While your evidence is suggestive, it doesn’t rule out the possibility that our ancestors encountered more dangerous species that are now extinct.
Agreed. But, I'm still skeptical that any species of spider has ever been a major selective agent on any species of mammal larger than a small rodent. The possibility is there, and I won't deny it outright, but I doubt it.
-----
Stephen Push writes:
In fact, it is possible that a genetic predisposition to learn to fear spiders and snakes started with mammalian ancestors that predated the first primates.
Well, I've argued for the evolution of a genetic predisposition to learn fear: I'm only arguing that a genetically-determined fear specifically of spiders is difficult to explain evolutionarily.
I would also suggest that pushing the origin further back in mammal evolution would make it less tenable from an evolutionary standpoint, because it would imply that natural selection has maintained the specific fear for a much longer period of time. Alternatively, it might imply that arachnophobia is atavistic or on its way out.
-----
Stephen Push writes:
LoBue’s paper provides the first evidence of enhanced visual detection of spiders in young children.
I haven't really researched the topic at all from a psychological or behavioral point of view, and I don't have institutional access to the journal of the spider paper, so I haven't prepared a proper rebuttal.
I would argue that this study doesn't really distinguish between learned and genetically-determined fear.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Stephen Push, posted 12-06-2010 11:23 AM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Stephen Push, posted 12-07-2010 12:54 PM Blue Jay has not replied

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