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Author Topic:   Opening the doors to creationism in British Schools?
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3553
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 46 of 129 (620387)
06-16-2011 3:43 AM


Wouldn't giving creationism the exposure it thinks it wants...
...be setting it up to get hammered all the harder?

Put creationism in the schools, then you'll have Richard Dawkins on the front pages of the newspapers, expounding on how stupid it is. Creationism won't be able to stand up to the attention that it thinks it wants.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7444
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 47 of 129 (620565)
06-17-2011 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Robert Byers
06-16-2011 3:10 AM


Well you keep saying that this or that has been decided.
Yet it hasn't.

Such as?

creationism is a critic of evolution etc. you can't just dismiss your critic.

I'm not proposing we dismiss critics. I'm just proposing we don't teach criticisms that fail to meet scientific standards of critique.

I'm glad to see that you see that creationism is almost entirely an attempt to discredit evolution, rather than as an idea of its own merit. However, since creationism came first - evolution might be more appropriately construed as a criticism of creationism. Since creationism fails to meet scientific standards of rebuttal, they don't get those ideas taught in a science class (though they may come up in PSE or RE)

creationism dOES have the right to criticize and make its own conclusions and teach it to the kids.

Creationism does not have any rights, its just an idea. Creationists do have the legal right to teach creationism to their kids - and we know as an empirical fact they tend to do this.

if these folks are teaching creationism was proved wrong back in the day well rebuttal is our right.
You seem to think that freedom of a nation or freedom of enquiry is to be controlled by some boss.

I think education should be safeguarded so that idealogues don't get to teach falsehoods or erroneous arguments to children to further their agenda. That there should be standards that are met before something receives state funding.

You have the right to rebuttal, many take advantage of that right.

it simply is a fact that creationism is a historic and present common conclusion on many matters in the nations.

Yes, and I have no problem teaching that creationism is a common belief. Though it should be noted, it is not nearly as common in Britain as it is in the USA, for example. I'd wager that a significant percentage of creationists in Britain are Muslim.

Censoring it is immoral and illegal and just poor form where truth is the desired goal.

I would agree that censoring it would be immoral, but I disagree any censorship is taking place. Limiting the scope of subject matter of a course to include no more than the consensus of the experts in the relevant fields should not be construed as censorship.

if you think your side proved creationism wrong then let the kids weigh the evidence themselves.
What's your fear?

I fear that falsehoods would be taught by authority figures and that the credulity of children might be exploited, as they are in schools where creationism is essentially taught right here in Britain.

I am perfectly happy to teach children the truth about creationism. See my threads Creationism in science classrooms (an argument for) and Intelligent design. Philosophy of ignorance.. But I do not wish to teach them falsehoods. If there is some truth about creationism you think is excluded from the British curriculum that you think should be included maybe you could get specific.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Robert Byers, posted 06-16-2011 3:10 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Robert Byers, posted 06-22-2011 3:56 AM Modulous has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 48 of 129 (620568)
06-17-2011 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Robert Byers
06-16-2011 3:10 AM


Well you keep saying that this or that has been decided.
Yet it hasn't.

Yes, in fact it has. You just do not want to accept the reality since it conflicts with your dogma.

creationism is a critic of evolution etc. you can't just dismiss your critic.

Yes, we can. Without any evidence, with just creationists' insisting they must be right based only on their fear of losing their faith, we can dismiss the rubbish chants of "goddoneit" very easily.

creationism dOES have the right to criticize and make its own conclusions and teach it to the kids.

Yes it does, but in church only, not in the public classroom of a secular nation and most certaily not in any science curriculum anywhere. You do not qualify for that privilege.

if these folks are teaching creationism was proved wrong back in the day well rebuttal is our right.

Rebut all you want. Any claim to science by creationism is long dead and burried. Done in by creationists themselves.

You've been re-butting for the last 150 years and it has only worked to show how stupid your dogma actually is.


You seem to think that freedom of a nation or freedom of enquiry is to be controlled by some boss.

It is you who want to control. You want to control all of society. You want to start with the young minds and build a theocracy where only you control. You want to brain wash all of society into kowtowing to your specific brand of religious dogma to the exclusion of all other befiefs (even other Christian ones).

You have a history of killing freedom and free inquiry in any society you can sink your fangs into. We will not repeat this mistake again.

We see you coming, Robert.

it simply is a fact that creationism is a historic and present common conclusion on many matters in the nations.

It is a fact that creationism is the demented ravings of a minority religious cult seeking control of the society.


Censoring it is immoral and illegal and just poor form where truth is the desired goal.

You do not qualify for a science class any more than the old alchemy does. That is not censorship. It is a fact of life. Deal with it.

if you think your side proved creationism wrong then let the kids weigh the evidence themselves.

We are teaching the kids the reality of this world and how to think. Your propagandizing them into uncritical allegience to some bloody 2500 year old myth is anathema to human freedom of thought.


What's your fear?

Dark ages Europe. Present day Iran.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Robert Byers, posted 06-16-2011 3:10 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1927 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 49 of 129 (620968)
06-22-2011 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Modulous
06-17-2011 6:18 PM


Well you just repeat you have concluded creationism is wrong and someone must safeguard truth so it should be you.
Not the people through their legislature.

Creationism is censored by law. The people are fine with it by a good majority.
Censoring ideas is just censoring ideas by some boss.
by your standard we could censor evolutionism just because of some gain of power.

Again. There is no difference between our ability to deal with and replace evolutionism.
There is no difference in quality or quantity of evidence.
Ones opponents to do not have veto power over ones credibility on ideas.
Its just impossible to censor creationism based on its historic and common acceptance for some ideas in origin subjects.
Its immoral and illegal and dumb.
You can invoke the word experts all you want and its just still another way to censor criticisms that are well established, well received, and famous.
In fact many would say God and the bible are the experts.
Who says its the right of the state to say otherwise?
Its just truth oppression.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 06-17-2011 6:18 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Son, posted 06-22-2011 4:53 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded
 Message 51 by bluescat48, posted 06-22-2011 7:48 AM Robert Byers has responded
 Message 52 by Modulous, posted 06-22-2011 9:06 AM Robert Byers has responded

  
Son
Member (Idle past 1388 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 50 of 129 (620973)
06-22-2011 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Robert Byers
06-22-2011 3:56 AM


We don't teach creationism the way you want us to for the same reason we don't teach flat-earthism. Not only there's no science behind it, but it contradicts science. Science is not just about "ideas" but about modeling reality. As I've already said, why are creationists not doing the work scientists had to to get accepted?
Creationists are first when it's about deceiving the public but there's noone left when you have work to do...
This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1748 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 51 of 129 (620982)
06-22-2011 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Robert Byers
06-22-2011 3:56 AM


Creationism is censored by law.

No, creationism is not censored by law. If a course called Creationism was put forth, it would be legitimate. What is not legitimate is wanting creationism is a biology class, since it is not evidence based.
The same rational is why alchemy is not taught in chemistry classes or astrology is not taught in astronomy classes, the fact they aren't evidence based.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Robert Byers, posted 06-22-2011 3:56 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Robert Byers, posted 06-24-2011 2:03 AM bluescat48 has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7444
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 52 of 129 (620994)
06-22-2011 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Robert Byers
06-22-2011 3:56 AM


Well you just repeat you have concluded creationism is wrong and someone must safeguard truth so it should be you.

This is an untruth. You are either lying, deliberately misrepresenting my expressed views are are suffering from a serious problem with your reading comprehension. This is why you cannot quote me saying this once, let alone repeating it.

Creationism is censored by law.

No it isn't. That is why this discussion is legal in my country, and yours. Furthermore, this thread is about legislation opening the doors to creationism in British Schools, which seems about as opposite to 'censorship by law' as one can get.

The people are fine with it by a good majority.

Not in Britain, and I've already commented on this method for deciding what to teach kids and you chose to ignore it in order to repeat yourself. If the majority said not to teach creationism, would that be grounds to not teach it? If the majority believed Christopher Columbus proved the world is round, should we teach that?

abe: The counterargument, in case you missed it, was that this method can end up with merely reinforcing common misconceptions as opposed to educating the populace.

Clearly, since you aren't taking into account anything that I have said, and probably aren't even paying attention to this post, further discussion is pointless.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Robert Byers, posted 06-22-2011 3:56 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Robert Byers, posted 06-24-2011 2:14 AM Modulous has responded

  
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1927 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 53 of 129 (621135)
06-24-2011 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by bluescat48
06-22-2011 7:48 AM


Your wrong.
Creationism is banned in schools. A famous subject. they invoke the law and about church/state.
As of now the legislature can not put creationism in subjects where origins are discussed.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by bluescat48, posted 06-22-2011 7:48 AM bluescat48 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by bluescat48, posted 06-24-2011 12:27 PM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1927 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 54 of 129 (621136)
06-24-2011 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Modulous
06-22-2011 9:06 AM


You don't like my answers. What you said is what you said.
I am thinking more about the censorship of creationism in American institutions based on the church/state issue thing.

If creationism can be taught in brit schools in the classes that deal with origins then great.
The people should decide, by the legislature, these matters if there is prohibition or just not both sides.

Yes. If the majority said creationism should not be taught then it shouldn't.
Unless theres some great law demanding all sides.
I bet there ain't.

Your still trying to ban creationism because you or your side has decided its not true.
This is what you keep saying.
Otherwise let the people decide.
Not a few elites at the top.
Why are you afraid of competition in subjects that are only barely able to introduce these subjects to the kids?
Freedom of thought is a better trail to truth then censoring ones opponents.
What other subjects are banned?
Why just the most famous, historical, and popular one that touches on contention.
HMMM.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Modulous, posted 06-22-2011 9:06 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by bluescat48, posted 06-24-2011 2:28 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded
 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 06-24-2011 6:31 AM Robert Byers has responded
 Message 57 by Itinerant Lurker, posted 06-24-2011 6:39 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1748 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 55 of 129 (621137)
06-24-2011 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Robert Byers
06-24-2011 2:14 AM


Your still trying to ban creationism because you or your side has decided its not true.

No, simply since it has no evidence to back it up. Show some real evidence and it could then be taught.

It would be like teaching , in a math class that pi = 3.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Robert Byers, posted 06-24-2011 2:14 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7444
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 56 of 129 (621150)
06-24-2011 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Robert Byers
06-24-2011 2:14 AM


You don't like my answers.

You've not given a sufficient number to draw any reasonable conclusion about my taste for your answers.

What you said is what you said.

Yes, but I did not say what you said I said.

I am thinking more about the censorship of creationism in American institutions based on the church/state issue thing.

Then you are not on topic.

The people should decide, by the legislature, these matters if there is prohibition or just not both sides

Do you have a solution to the problem of reinforcing popular misconceptions?

Your still trying to ban creationism because you or your side has decided its not true.

No, I'm trying to make sure that the only thing taught in science class is science as understood by experts of science. You seem to think that we should include popular misconceptions of science and you have not given justification for this.

This is what you keep saying.

I've not said it once, and I have admonished you once for misrepresenting me. I see you are incapable of learning.

Why are you afraid of competition in subjects that are only barely able to introduce these subjects to the kids?

I fear popular misconceptions and phoney pseudoscience will be taught to children and we need safeguards in place to avoid that. Do you disagree? Do you think we should teach falsehoods to children?

What other subjects are banned?

Since creationism isn't banned, I fail to see the relevance in this question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Robert Byers, posted 06-24-2011 2:14 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Robert Byers, posted 06-28-2011 3:18 AM Modulous has responded

  
Itinerant Lurker
Member (Idle past 214 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 12-12-2008


(1)
Message 57 of 129 (621151)
06-24-2011 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Robert Byers
06-24-2011 2:14 AM


I am thinking more about the censorship of creationism in American institutions based on the church/state issue thing.

I, as a teacher, am thinking more about the censorship of creationism in American schools based on the fact/fiction issue thing. We tend to try and censor out the fiction from science.

If the majority said creationism should not be taught then it shouldn't.

Why is that? Science is the investigation of what is true, not what is popular opinion. When you have a leak in your roof do you canvas your neighborhood for popular opinion on how to fix it or call a professional roofer?

Your still trying to ban creationism because you or your side has decided its not true.

Boo freaking hoo.


What other subjects are banned?

The things we now know aren't true. As I explained, this isn't a church/state issue as much as a fact/fiction issue. To paraphrase Sagan, in science your preferences do not matter.

Lurker


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Robert Byers, posted 06-24-2011 2:14 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1748 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 58 of 129 (621201)
06-24-2011 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Robert Byers
06-24-2011 2:03 AM


As of now the legislature can not put creationism in subjects where origins are discussed.

Like what? What type of origins?


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Robert Byers, posted 06-24-2011 2:03 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1927 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 59 of 129 (621688)
06-28-2011 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Modulous
06-24-2011 6:31 AM


Creationism in subjects dealing with conclusions about origins is banned indeed.
You keep saying misconceptions of the public.
its YOUR opinion they are misconceptions.
Again either the people decide of a smaller number of people decide what is true or not true or as you would put it WHAT is accurately conceived and what is misconceived.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 06-24-2011 6:31 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Son, posted 06-28-2011 3:42 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded
 Message 61 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 5:01 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded
 Message 62 by Modulous, posted 06-28-2011 9:30 AM Robert Byers has responded

  
Son
Member (Idle past 1388 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 60 of 129 (621690)
06-28-2011 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Robert Byers
06-28-2011 3:18 AM


Tell me, should we teach Astrology in physics classes? What we teach in science classes is supposed to be SCIENCE. The problem with you creationists is that you're all for teaching your beliefs but noone's there when you are supposed to do the work. Every scientists had to do lots of work to get their theories accepted but somehow you guys think we should bend over backward to satisfy your primitive beliefs when you do none of the work required.
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 Message 59 by Robert Byers, posted 06-28-2011 3:18 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
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