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Author Topic:   Did Jesus betray Judas?
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 16 of 64 (563322)
06-04-2010 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phage0070
06-04-2010 10:28 AM


Re: Interesting.....
What gets me is that the only way Yahweh could conceive of for letting humanity off was to torture himeself/Jesus (depending on your point of view) to death.
Why Yahweh decided that this was the only way to say humanity from himself (i.e. from Yahweh) is beyond me.
It's as if Yawah had to torture himself/Jesus to save us from a punishment Yahweh decided to visit us with.
Why not just remove the punishment then there would be no need for the torture? Oh well, I imagine you are right and Yahweh is still in bloodmonger mode...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phage0070, posted 06-04-2010 10:28 AM Phage0070 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 17 of 64 (563329)
06-04-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Larni
06-04-2010 10:38 AM


Re: Interesting.....
It's as if Yawah had to torture himself/Jesus to save us from a punishment Yahweh decided to visit us with.
Exactly. Yawah is deranged. And we were worried about G.W. Bush having his finger on the button...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Larni, posted 06-04-2010 10:38 AM Larni has not replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 18 of 64 (563335)
06-04-2010 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
06-04-2010 12:34 AM


Re: Interesting.....
the fact was that none of the other apostles had any idea that Jesus was going to be killed so why would Judas?
When men tried to arrest Jesus on the night of his trial, his apostles tried to fight them off, so they certainly werent under any impression that this was meant to happen.
Good point. The problem with the apostles and with Jews still to this day who read the OT faithfully is that then and now, they were looking for an earthly king or saviour. Christ addressed this numerous times in fact in the NT.

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Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 19 of 64 (563338)
06-04-2010 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Larni
06-04-2010 6:41 AM


Re: Interesting.....
This is what I've never understood: why did Yahweh decide to have an ultra strict law that nobody could live up to and then give a get out clause in the first place?
Why not relax the laws (or make them more reasonable in the first place) and nobody would have had to betray anyone or get crucified and preople can still get into heaven?
I assume that because we are talking about Jesus here, that Yahweh is the current ever loving, forgiveness merchant rather than his older incarnation of a total bloodmunger.
Why did Jesus have to die? Why did neoYahweh not just say "look fellas, I know in the past the law was a bit of a fucker, but now I'm seeing things a different way: come on in the gates to heaven are open. No don't worry Jesus, I've decided by fiat that you don't have suffer. Any one for nachos?"
Good questions that just about everyone asks at one time or another.
Again, God is sovereign so I'm not going to claim to have the exact answer to why did Jesus have to die, why not relax the rules?
One, God is perfectly holy and sinless. Something we can not fully grasp as we humans are surround by sin, evil, death on a daily basis. But let's not go to extremes. Let's hypothetically say that we did have someone who wasn't born sinful and lived a sinless life for 90 years and on his death bed, he thought lustfully of the lovely 21 year 40 DD nurse attending to him. (why he wouldn't think that when he was 21 is reason for question but stay with me)....and he croaks. In the eyes of God, he will not enter heaven, he sinned, he did not accept his sacrifice for mankind. Brutal!!!! you cry out, no way! scream the masses. Hitler maybe, but not grandpa!!!! Well, God is perfectly holy, and sin cannot enter into presence.
Thus the blood sacrifice for our sins because none of us, no matter how relaxed the rules, could live up to the standard of the creator. The "ritual" of the blood sacrifice began in the OT with Passover, Christ in the NT becomes the passover lamb.
And nachos rule!
Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 31 by cavediver, posted 06-05-2010 6:28 AM Flyer75 has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 20 of 64 (563353)
06-04-2010 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Flyer75
06-04-2010 11:42 AM


Re: Interesting.....
Well, God is perfectly holy, and sin cannot enter into presence.
Sin cannot enter Yahwehs's presence because he decides it cannot enter his presence.
He also decides what counts as sin: if he were to say "from now on sinning and hell is only for the big stuff! Not for acting in the way I made you. Behaving as you are designed to behave is no longer sin" then the world would be a much better shape.
That's what I reckon.
Thus the blood sacrifice for our sins because none of us, no matter how relaxed the rules, could live up to the standard of the creator.
Does then the genius parent condemn their child to eternal torment because their son is merely bright?
Yahweh sets the standard impossibly high because he chooses to, not because he is compelled to. He sets the rules that we cannot abide by and makes us jump through the hoop of 'accepting Jesus' before he chooses to let us off the hook.
Well done Yahweh for being the cause and solution to all of humanities problems.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 64 (563438)
06-04-2010 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Flyer75
06-04-2010 11:42 AM


Re: Interesting.....
Flyer75 writes:
The "ritual" of the blood sacrifice began in the OT with Passover, Christ in the NT becomes the passover lamb.
What is it about killing something else, or something else bleeding, that forgives the transgressions of another? A sacrifice is giving up something of value to yourself, which is why you have a sacrifice of goods (including animals, as they were particularly valuable). Jesus wasn't a sacrifice in that sense because humanity didn't own him and lost nothing by giving him up. It was just needless brutality.
If someone murders your child, would you consider it justice if someone else died on behalf of the murderer? I wouldn't!
Flyer75 writes:
...he thought lustfully of the lovely 21 year 40 DD nurse attending to him.
This would be a "thought crime", a concept almost universally considered to be unjust. This is particularly relevant to moral judgments, as I will explain.
In order for someone to be held morally accountable they need to be a "moral agent", or "a being who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong". This means that in a given situation they need to understand the difference between right and wrong, and be able to distinguish the results of their actions in that regard.
For example, in order for someone to be considered guilty of murder they would need to understand the difference between right and wrong, that murder is wrong, and that they were committing murder. If they lack any of those they would be considered either insane, wildly misinformed, or that their actions were accidental.
Moral agents must be able to conceive of immoral actions in order to really be making moral judgments. The merit of being moral lies in restraining oneself from taking immoral actions that would otherwise be pleasant or beneficial. Nobody is given much credit for avoiding immoral actions that they wouldn't want to do in the first place.
This is what makes the "sin of lust" so unjust: the restraint of preventing action based on his desire was a moral decision. Lack of desire isn't a moral decision in the same way that a rock's lack of desire to murder isn't a moral decision. God assigning punishment based on the presence of desire would simply hit everyone capable of making a moral decision, regardless of fault. There would literally be no way to be moral.

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 22 of 64 (563440)
06-04-2010 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Larni
06-04-2010 10:38 AM


Re: Interesting.....
Larni writes:
What gets me is that the only way Yahweh could conceive of for letting humanity off was to torture himeself/Jesus (depending on your point of view) to death.
Why Yahweh decided that this was the only way to say humanity from himself (i.e. from Yahweh) is beyond me.
its quite simple really
When Adam and Eve recieved their punishment for disobedience, Death, God needed to alter their genetic makeup to include death. Their genes were passed onto all their children so we were born with their genetics including, death.
For God to remove this genetic flaw from us, he needed the life of a perfect corresponding human to replace Adam. If the one whom God chose would willingly sacrifice his life for this purpose, then God would accept the life of that one as the new 'father' of all mankind and therefore God could legally remove death from us because that perfect man would have no genetic flaws with which to pass onto us. Jesus was perfect in every way and made that sacrifice willingly in order for us to choose which father we wanted as our own.
1Corinthians 15:46-49 writes:
The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. 48As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. 49And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one.
We could choose Adam and his sin, or Jesus and his perfect life. For those who choose Adam, nothing will change for them. For those who choose Jesus, they will have the opportunity to live forever in perfection by taking on his image as the above scripture shows.
Edited by Peg, : included scripture

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Larni, posted 06-04-2010 10:38 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Flyer75, posted 06-04-2010 10:58 PM Peg has replied
 Message 30 by Larni, posted 06-05-2010 6:12 AM Peg has replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 23 of 64 (563442)
06-04-2010 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peg
06-04-2010 10:55 PM


Re: Interesting.....
Peg, Good points about Adam and the correlation to Christ. Thus, Christ being referred to as the "Last Adam" by most Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 06-04-2010 10:55 PM Peg has replied

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 24 of 64 (563443)
06-04-2010 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Flyer75
06-04-2010 10:58 PM


Re: Interesting.....
thanks
i just included the scripture

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 25 of 64 (563446)
06-04-2010 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Larni
06-04-2010 1:40 PM


Re: Interesting.....
Larni writes:
Yahweh sets the standard impossibly high because he chooses to, not because he is compelled to. He sets the rules that we cannot abide by and makes us jump through the hoop of 'accepting Jesus' before he chooses to let us off the hook.
This is a good observation about our inablity to live up to Gods standards and I agree with you that none of us can. But this isnt because his standards are too high.
Jesus life course proved that a 'perfect' person can in fact live by Gods standards. We though are not perfect and this is why God grants us forgiveness for our sins...this is why he is merciful with us...he recognizes our sinful condition and our inability to live up to his standards.
But he is willing to provide us with concessions and to prove it he sent his son into the world to be a mediator for us. Jesus intercedes when we sin so that that God will forgive the sin
Romans 8:34 "Who is he that will condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us."
Romans 7:25 "Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them."
1Timothy 2:5"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 26 of 64 (563447)
06-04-2010 11:13 PM


Topic is a Judas thing
I think that the roll Judas played is an interesting theme, and not one I recall being previously explored at evcforum.net.
Shall we keep things focused on things Judas?
Adminnemooseus

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 27 of 64 (563450)
06-04-2010 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phage0070
06-04-2010 10:27 PM


Re: Interesting.....
Phage0070 writes:
What is it about killing something else, or something else bleeding, that forgives the transgressions of another? A sacrifice is giving up something of value to yourself, which is why you have a sacrifice of goods (including animals, as they were particularly valuable).
The blood sacrifices came about because of Adams sin.
When the death sentence was imposed on Adam, he had to die to pay for his disobedience. Romans 3:23 "the wages sin pays is death
So by death, Adam would pay the price of sin.
This is why his decendents realised that they would also need to pay the same price for their own sin. As a way to appease God, they would offer other sacrifices but these would never abolish their inborn sin...only death would do that.
Romans 6:7 He who has died has been acquitted [justified] from his sin.
Jesus had no sin, therefore he never had to die to pay for it. He was a perfect sinless man and he made the sacrifice of his perfect life in compensation for all of mankinds sinful life. When he offered this to God, God accepted it as the basis for his perfect law "life for life"
this is why we are told that thru Jesus, mankind can gain salvation from sin and death. But as Paul shows, we must put faith in that sacrifice
Romans 5:1-2 "Therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith, let us enjoy peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have gained our approach by faith into this undeserved kindness in which we now stand
I guess to bring it back in line with the theme "did Jesus betray Judas" the answer is No. Judas chose to betray Jesus all on his own. And if it wasnt judas, it woudl have been someone else who would have betrayed him. The problem with Judas was that his heart was not really in it, he was stealing from the collection money which showed that his motives were not right toward Jesus anyway.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 64 (563467)
06-05-2010 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Peg
06-04-2010 11:26 PM


Re: Interesting.....
Peg writes:
Romans 6:7 He who has died has been acquitted [justified] from his sin.
Well heck, I don't need Jesus's help to die. I think everyone can probably handle the after-death judgment on those terms.
But if Jesus did his thing, then why do you still die then?

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 29 of 64 (563469)
06-05-2010 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phage0070
06-05-2010 2:11 AM


Re: Interesting.....
Phage0070 writes:
I don't need Jesus's help to die. I think everyone can probably handle the after-death judgment on those terms.
there is no 'after death' judgement. The judgement has already been handed out and it IS death. Once we die, we pay for our sins and all is forgiven...end of story.
Phage0070 writes:
But if Jesus did his thing, then why do you still die then?
the full realisation of the 'release from death' will not happen until the beginning of the 1,000 rule of Christ.
Currently we are self governed so before Jesus rule can begin, mans rulership and authority has to be done away with. That is what Armageddon will do...it will bring an end to human rulership and bring in the rulership of christ.
Daniel 2:44 "the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin, it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms and it itself will stand to times indefinite"
Then and only then will death be no more because God will remove the genetic factor that causes us to die.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 30 of 64 (563480)
06-05-2010 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peg
06-04-2010 10:55 PM


Not needing to set up Judas to kill Jesus
When Adam and Eve recieved their punishment for disobedience, Death, God needed to alter their genetic makeup to include death.
This is where you are wrong.
Yahweh could have given them Death without altering the genetic make up. He's a god after all. Unless you are placing arbitrary limits on his power? He did not need to put Judas through all the heart ache of betraying his friend, as a result.
For God to remove this genetic flaw from us, he needed the life of a perfect corresponding human to replace Adam.
Again you place an arbitrary limit on your gods power. He needed to do no such thing. You are making it up: where in the bible does it put limits on Yahweh's power? He could have done it all with out engineering Judas into a situation in which Yahweh knew he would sin!
and therefore God could legally remove death from us because that perfect man would have no genetic flaws with which to pass onto us.
Legally? What are you talking about? On the one hand you say Yahweh had no choice but to condemn all of humanity to death and eternal torment but on the other you say he created a loop whole that would allow him to break the rules. The question I ask is:
Why set the rules up in the way he did, why use all these convoluted methods co opting otherwise innocent people (Judas) when he could have avoided the situation by just with the punishment of Adam and Eve (but again, Yahweh set them to to fail, too)?
If Yahweh had used a scalpel on the problem of Adam and Eve (which he again instigated) and smote them there and then rather than buggering around with genetic material as you insist, Judas would not have betrayed Jesus and Jesus would not have had to die.
We could choose Adam and his sin, or Jesus and his perfect life. For those who choose Adam, nothing will change for them. For those who choose Jesus, they will have the opportunity to live forever in perfection by taking on his image as the above scripture shows.
Peg, please believe me that I understand that this is the current system: my contention is that it did not need to be the current system if Yahweh had have been a better, wiser father.
Jesus life course proved that a 'perfect' person can in fact live by Gods standards. We though are not perfect and this is why God grants us forgiveness for our sins...this is why he is merciful with us...he recognizes our sinful condition and our inability to live up to his standards.
Yahweh made us imperfect (as discussed above) when he could have punished Adam and Eve rather than all of humanity.
Yahweh (in his infinite power) did not need to do that, no one, Jesus or Judas would have had to suffer.
Edited by Larni, : Staying on track

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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