Did Jesus betray Judas?

Hi Peg, Neither was the man who was formed from the dust of the ground.But death did not exist until he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.By one man's sin death entered into the world. (kosmos=universe)That is the reason Jesus died for the sins of the kosmos including Judas.The problem was Judas chose not to believe and receive the gift of life.That is the reason it was so easy for Satan to get him to do his bidding.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

that is according to your strange idea that there were two creations of mankind which is not what Jesus believed. there is no reason to believe that animals were made to live forever
The only person who God mentions anything about living forever is Adam when he says he removed him from the garden to prevent him eating from the 'tree of life' Romans 5:12 shows the context of the 'kosmos' in that verse is with regard to 'mankind'
Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and THUS DEATH SPREAD TO ALL MEN because they had all sinnedThe angels certainly do not die and even Satan has been alive since he was created....so death did not spread to them...only to all men.

tell me, how do you get something perfect from something imperfect?

Humanity in general; although I understand that, according to the doctrine, it's not a given that we are all saved. But that's not really the point I was making in my OP. I was not claiming that anyone else portrayed Judas as a hero. I was using my own brain and logic to demonstrate the hypocracy and inconsistency of the Biblical story and Christian belief that Jesus laid down his life for anyone.I used Judas as a way in to the argument. I don't really think Judas saved us any more than Jesus did, because I don't believe in God or magic, and I have no idea or care as to whether or not those characters in the Bible represent people who may have really existed. My point is about the logic and consistency of the story.

Hi Peg But as indicated in my OP, why was it necessary for someone to "work against God's holy spirit" and betray Jesus in order that Jesus then suffered, which in turn allowed him to save others (but not, as you admit, the one who betrayed him)?Leaving aside for the moment the question of the actual mechanics of how Jesus was able to save people by his suffering, where is the logic and fairness in a story that requires someone to do something "bad" and suffer as a result in order for Jesus to then become the hero?Did Jesus deliberately befriend Judas and all the other disciples with the knowledge and intention that at least one of them would eventually betray him? Would Jesus have had to hang about indefinitely until one of them betrayed him? If none of them did so, would he have then gone out and befriended more and more disreputable characters until he eventually found one that would stitch him up?

Yep, we have an understanding.Well, among the Nag Hammadi collection of non-canonized books is a Coptic text of the Gospel of Judas. You might recall it made headlines a few years ago after having been rediscovered.In the Gospel of Judas it portrays him as a facilitator of Jesus, not a betrayer. His most trusted ally, if you will, to help him be arrested and crucified so that he could enact the world's most elaborate hoax.There have been some speculation that Jesus did whatever he could (throwing shit around the temple marketplace and whipping people, entering through the south gate on a donkey) to entice them to kill him so that he could be martyred.Why? For the very reason we are speaking about him now. He is legend. He is the most discussed human being in human history. An entire religion is centered around him and in another he is a central figure. Maybe he just wanted to pull off the world's greatest hoax to immortalize himself.I don't know. But supposing that Jesus was a real figure in human history we must consider what C.S. Lewis noted in his trilemma argument; that Jesus was definitely one of three things:1. Lord (was exactly who he claimed to be)
2. Lunatic (thought he was what he claimed to be, but was deluded)
3. Liar (knew he was not what he claimed to be)Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

---

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

I agree with your whole post except for the first possibility noted by C.S. Lewis that Jesus could have been
"Lord (exactly who he claimed to be)".It is inconceivable that such a perfect entity, as Jesus/God are portrayed to be, could have instigated such a convoluted and hypocritical scheme whereby he had to get someone in position to betray him in order to achieve something.

By using your divine power to remover the imperfection.A snap of YHWH's fingers.

That's not a possibility? That would be assuming that the Gospel of Judas is some heretical document written after-the-fact. If so, I would tend to agree with you. The Gnostics, though, saw Jesus and God much differently as modern Christians do.

---

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

Could you expand on that, please (within the context of this discussion).

Hi Peg, Are you saying the man formed from the dust of the ground that was placed in the garden and forbidden to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But did disobey and eat the fruit thus bringing death into the kosmos is not the first man on Earth?Sin entered the kosmos by the sin of one man.Death is the penalty of sin.Mankind is separated from God due to sin being in the kosmos.Therefore sin is not heritable. Sin just exists and because it exists mankind is separated from God.Now if you want to discuss the man (Adam) as you call him take it back to my thread as it is off topic here.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

like i said, the death of Jesus wasnt dependent upon Judas. The priests had already decided that they would kill him, that was well before Judas betrayed Jesus.Judas didnt really have a 'role' in Jesus death as such just as the soldiers who strung him to the stake did not. Judas was simply one who acted in such a way as to fulfill one of the prophecies that were fortold a long time before hand. But the important thing is that Jesus death was not depending on Judas actions. It would have happened with or without Judas...the priests would have arrested Jesus and put him on trial with or without judas help.

Well, the Gnostics viewed god (of the bible) as imperfect, he created an imperfect world. There was also a superior entity that was "perfect".Jesus wanted to escape this impeerfect world, and attain the perfection of the superior entity, and he used Judas (who was fully aware of this) to attain that. Judas helped him, and though he was a bit reluctant, trusted his friend and teacher, and so "betrayed" him. In fact, Jesus asked him to do this (according to the gospel of Judas). The gospel doesn't mention the fate of Judas, though he does have a vision of being stoned to death by the remaining apostles.

The plot thickens...But surely everyone involved had some kind of role. They all helped in the process of getting Jesus executed. The priests wanted him executed, Judas helped the priests by betraying Jesus to them, and the soldiers physically carried out the execution.If you regard the whole matter as fulfillment of a prophecy, all the above characters were necessary to carry it out. For one reason or another, they all wanted Jesus executed for their own ends.

Thanks for your explanation on the Gnostics. I don't want to get too side-tracked on this but, just to be clear, what was this perfect entitiy they envisioned that was something different than God of the Bible?