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Author Topic:   The Concept of God -- Need Logic Help
PaulK
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Posts: 12956
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 61 of 81 (733756)
07-21-2014 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by NoNukes
07-20-2014 6:38 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
quote:

You continue to outline the difficulties, and I agree with you in each instance. But what you cannot explain is why those difficulties represent an impossibility for a being who can anticipate anything and everything and can make those assessments at a glance. Heck, maybe there was a little cheating in delaying the cock crow or with the challenges being given when they were.

Of course I'm not claiming impossibility, simply implausibility. The level of accuracy seems beyond anything that could be reasonably achieved if we allow that free will actions are not perfectly predictable.

quote:

The universe does not operate deterministically, nor is it predetermined. I'm suggesting that neither of those things are obstacles to a being who is outside of the rules.

It does make perfect knowledge of the future impossible through ordinary prediction, though. Unless you assume cheating to the extent of deliberately arranging each unpredictable event (which hardly improves your position).

Again, perfect knowledge of the future is the problem. Arguing about mechanisms can't help you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 6:38 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 62 of 81 (792000)
09-30-2016 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
07-19-2014 3:58 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
He hides in His heaven, refusing to even show us that He exists.
I dont feel that way. Perhaps you do because you are stuck on the "show" and un moved by any feeling.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 3:58 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Rrhain, posted 09-30-2016 5:03 AM Phat has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6121
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 63 of 81 (792001)
09-30-2016 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
09-30-2016 3:10 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat writes:

quote:
Perhaps you do because you are stuck on the "show" and un moved by any feeling.

You do understand just how insulting that statement is, yes?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 3:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 8:36 AM Rrhain has not yet responded
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:59 PM Rrhain has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 64 of 81 (792004)
09-30-2016 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rrhain
09-30-2016 5:03 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
It would be insulting to some. Ringo and I have a long history of going round and round with this stuff. I think he understands that its not personal.

Ringo always demands evidence. He won't entertain any belief without it, although there cannot be any evidence in regards to anything labeled supernatural.

Im chiding him for "not feelin it". Relax.

For you're benefit, I might add:

*Blink*

"You Did Not Just Say That, Did You?"


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Rrhain, posted 09-30-2016 5:03 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Taq, posted 09-30-2016 10:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 09-30-2016 11:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6999
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 65 of 81 (792009)
09-30-2016 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
09-30-2016 8:36 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat writes:

Ringo always demands evidence. He won't entertain any belief without it, although there cannot be any evidence in regards to anything labeled supernatural.

Why can't there be any evidence with regard to the supernatural? It would seem to me that if the stories in the Old Testament are true that the supernatural can easily produce evidence.

Also, you demand evidence for many claims, do you not? If you are taking medication for an illness you expect that there is solid evidence demonstrating its efficacy. You don't expect the efficacy of a drug to be based on feelings, do you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 8:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13416
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 66 of 81 (792012)
09-30-2016 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
09-30-2016 8:36 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat writes:

Ringo always demands evidence. He won't entertain any belief without it....


No. As I've said many times, belief is specifically for those situations where you don't have any evidence. If you have evidence for something, you ought to accept that it's true.

(I know we sometimes use "believe" as in "believe in evolution" but I try to avoid that.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 8:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 67 of 81 (792018)
09-30-2016 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rrhain
09-30-2016 5:03 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
You do understand just how insulting that statement is, yes?
I hear this word "insulting" quite often from unbelievers. Is the entire idea of Jesus insulting to you? Theodoric trots out the word quite often..as if how dare I say such things!

The reason I bring it up is because I hear the word more from non believers than I do from religious folks.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Rrhain, posted 09-30-2016 5:03 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-30-2016 1:06 PM Phat has responded
 Message 70 by Taq, posted 09-30-2016 2:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 72 by Rrhain, posted 09-30-2016 2:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 73 by jar, posted 09-30-2016 5:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 75 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2016 1:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13416
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 68 of 81 (792020)
09-30-2016 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
09-30-2016 12:59 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat writes:

I hear this word "insulting" quite often from unbelievers. Is the entire idea of Jesus insulting to you?


It's insulting that you ignore us when we say, "No, the idea of Jesus is NOT insulting to me." Don't try to psychoanalyze people. You're not qualified.

Phat writes:

The reason I bring it up is because I hear the word more from non believers than I do from religious folks.


Allow me to introduce you to Faith.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 2:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 69 of 81 (792027)
09-30-2016 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
09-30-2016 1:06 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
ahhh so it insults you when I try and psychoanalyze you! Correct?

And yes, I thought of Faith. She is a sensitive one.

You, on the other hand would be better off going to a qualified professional if you don't like my analytical style...but just between us internet friends, i'm free and they cost money.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-30-2016 1:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Taq, posted 09-30-2016 2:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 10-01-2016 11:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6999
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 70 of 81 (792028)
09-30-2016 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
09-30-2016 12:59 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat writes:

I hear this word "insulting" quite often from unbelievers. Is the entire idea of Jesus insulting to you?

It is an insult to your intelligence when the snake oil salesman tells you that you just don't want to believe that the snake oil works. It is a backhanded dismissal of the argument that there is no evidence that the snake oil works, and it pretends like we can't see right through the most obvious attempt to avoid the argument by appealing to emotions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6999
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 71 of 81 (792029)
09-30-2016 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
09-30-2016 2:35 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat writes:

ahhh so it insults you when I try and psychoanalyze you! Correct?

It is an attack on someone's character which is used as a way of avoiding the argument being put forth. That is what is insulting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 2:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6121
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 72 of 81 (792030)
09-30-2016 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
09-30-2016 12:59 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat responds to me:

quote:
I hear this word "insulting" quite often from unbelievers.

Then have you considered the possibility that you are, indeed, being insulting? When you keep getting the same response from people, different people with different agendas, then consider the possibility that it isn't them.

It's you.

quote:
Is the entire idea of Jesus insulting to you?

Huh? Why would "the entire idea of Jesus" be insulting?

A belief in Jesus is not insulting.

An assumption that atheists aren't being sincere is. An assumption that atheists are being willful is. Do recall that the vast majority of atheists used to be believers. They "felt" it all. They then realized that what they were feeling wasn't what they thought it was.

It's the same argument that atheists are psychopaths without feeling who would just as soon kill you as shake your hand.

quote:
Theodoric trots out the word quite often..as if how dare I say such things!
The reason I bring it up is because I hear the word more from non believers than I do from religious folks.

Again, consider the possibility that it is, indeed, you. If you keep getting this reaction from people despite their having no connection to each other, then there is a distinct possibility that they're onto something.

After all, you responded to this message twice...once to claim you were just kidding and then again to play dumb.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29182
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 73 of 81 (792035)
09-30-2016 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
09-30-2016 12:59 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat writes:

I hear this word "insulting" quite often from unbelievers. Is the entire idea of Jesus insulting to you? Theodoric trots out the word quite often..as if how dare I say such things!

The reason I bring it up is because I hear the word more from non believers than I do from religious folks.

I think I would say it is embarrassing more than insulting. It seems today that an American Christian can't open their mouth without presenting a face palm assertion.

It is one long stream of inane comment followed by inane comment.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13416
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 74 of 81 (792044)
10-01-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
09-30-2016 2:35 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat writes:

ahhh so it insults you when I try and psychoanalyze you! Correct?


"Insult" isn't the word I would use but suppose you're eating your favorite ice cream and somebody keeps telling you, "No, you really prefer Coffee Mustard,'" and no matter how many times you tell them what you really think, they insist that they know you better than you know yourself.

Phat writes:

You, on the other hand would be better off going to a qualified professional if you don't like my analytical style...


Your analytical "style" is a broken record.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 2:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(2)
Message 75 of 81 (792046)
10-01-2016 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
09-30-2016 12:59 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Theodoric trots out the word quite often..as if how dare I say such things!

Seemingly it is ok for you to attack nontheists, but no one is allowed to question your dubious logic and beliefs at all.

Classic, typical, hard core theist.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
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