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Author Topic:   Detecting God
Just being real
Member (Idle past 1549 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 256 of 271 (578629)
09-02-2010 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by PaulK
08-31-2010 6:21 AM


Re: What counts as detection?
For instance your assumption that the universe has a finite future, when in fact the matter is not settled and last I heard it leans the other way ?

I didn't realize it was an assumption Paul. Because I got my information from news sources that interviewed some real heavy weights in the cosmology field. NewScientist reported that observations by NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), which was launched in 2001, of the large scale microwave background ripples did not match up at all with the prediction model of an infinite universe (spatially). Time magazine reported that the question has been once and for all settled... that the universe will fizzle out in a cold icy death. Two esteemed sources which say that the universe is both finite in size as well as life.
http://www.time.com/...gazine/article/0,9171,1000170,00.html
http://www.newscientist.com/...hints-universe-is-finite.html

Or how about the illogic in your argument that since we, as finite creatures observing a finite portion of space and time can only see a finite number of entities we should assume that the total number of entities that have ever existed is also finite, even given infinite time ?

This is not illogical Paul, its pure mathematics. Mathematically nothing finite can exist infinitely apart from an infinite source. Think about all attempts to make a "Perpetual Motion" machine. That is to say some sort of machine that requires no outside source to keep it in motion. See Carnot's second law of thermodynamics. If you put 1 unit of energy into a machine, you MUST get less than that unit back out of it while some is lost. Laws of thermodynamics state this, and it has been proven to be true. This law effects everything finite. You can not get an equal or greater amount of energy out than what was put in. So in any system even one that produces "universes" if the originator is finite and the product is finite, you must eventually see a death or end to the entire finite system.

And in fact we do have observations that would suggest otherwise. We know that the vacuum is not empty. Instead it is a sea of particles flickering in and out of existence. If we extend this observation into infinite time, does it not follow that there must have been an infinite number of finite entities ?

First, note that you made the giant leap from a "sea" of particles to "infinite" particles. I would point out that just because a sea of water droplets may appear to us, to be infinite, it is still a vast infinity away from being infinite. If we were to remove one drop of water from the sea a day, given enough time, you would eventually drain the sea dry. This is not the case with something infinite.

Second, neither the big bang nor expansion theory postulates preexisting space or vacuum. Hence there would have been no place for virtual particles to fluctuate.

Third, virtual particles, if real, form as matter and antimatter in equal amounts. However our universe appears to consist almost entirely of ordinary matter. Antimatter is distinctly rare.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by PaulK, posted 08-31-2010 6:21 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by PaulK, posted 09-02-2010 7:00 AM Just being real has not yet responded
 Message 258 by cavediver, posted 09-04-2010 4:11 PM Just being real has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 257 of 271 (578637)
09-02-2010 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Just being real
09-02-2010 6:28 AM


Re: What counts as detection?
quote:

I didn't realize it was an assumption Paul. Because I got my information from news sources that interviewed some real heavy weights in the cosmology field. NewScientist reported that observations by NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), which was launched in 2001, of the large scale microwave background ripples did not match up at all with the prediction model of an infinite universe (spatially). Time magazine reported that the question has been once and for all settled... that the universe will fizzle out in a cold icy death. Two esteemed sources which say that the universe is both finite in size as well as life.

So you had one source that was irrelevant and another which you misunderstood. Might I suggest taking a little more care ?

quote:

This is not illogical Paul, its pure mathematics.

Complete and utter nonsense.

quote:

Mathematically nothing finite can exist infinitely apart from an infinite source. Think about all attempts to make a "Perpetual Motion" machine. That is to say some sort of machine that requires no outside source to keep it in motion. See Carnot's second law of thermodynamics. If you put 1 unit of energy into a machine, you MUST get less than that unit back out of it while some is lost. Laws of thermodynamics state this, and it has been proven to be true. This law effects everything finite. You can not get an equal or greater amount of energy out than what was put in. So in any system even one that produces "universes" if the originator is finite and the product is finite, you must eventually see a death or end to the entire finite system.

So lets deal with the problems.

Firstly this is a completely different argument which fails to even address the point.

Secondly it is NOT a mathematical argument (and it contains no mathematics at all!).

Thirdly if you assume an infinite past (as you do) you need to explain why we have not already reached the state of maximum entropy. Good luck doing that without violating the Second Law of Thermodynamics or resorting to special pleading. (And yes, invoking an infinite energy source does amount to throwing out thermodynamics)

quote:

First, note that you made the giant leap from a "sea" of particles to "infinite" particles.

Wrong as usual. The "jump" is justified by the assumption of infinite past time. If there were even a finitely small probability of a virtual particle coming into existence at each moment in time the total would be infinite, given infinite time. (Hint, what do you get if you multiply a finite number greater than zero by infinity ?)

quote:

Second, neither the big bang nor expansion theory postulates preexisting space or vacuum. Hence there would have been no place for virtual particles to fluctuate.

Now you are departing from logic again. Your ability to imagine conditions under which your assertions could be true does not make them true. And in this case you would have to assume that there was only a finite amount of the infinite past in which there was any space at all. That's a pretty big assumption, even without the fact that space and time are linked.

quote:

Third, virtual particles, if real, form as matter and antimatter in equal amounts. However our universe appears to consist almost entirely of ordinary matter. Antimatter is distinctly rare.

Which is completely irrelevant to the point. Remember your argument was that there COULD NOT be an infinite number of finite things. How does the asymmetry of matter and antimatter in our universe relate to that claim (which goes beyond our universe) ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Just being real, posted 09-02-2010 6:28 AM Just being real has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by cavediver, posted 09-04-2010 4:17 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1256 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 258 of 271 (579427)
09-04-2010 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Just being real
09-02-2010 6:28 AM


Re: What counts as detection?
Two esteemed sources which say that the universe is both finite in size as well as life.

Finite in size is completely distinct from finite in time. All evidence at the moment points to the Universe being infinite in the future time direction. Your source talking about a cold icy death is talking about an infinite future, not a finite one.

And it has not been settled once and for all, as we do not know the future dynamics of the dark energy field. But it certainly appears very likely that the Universe will continue to expand at an ever increasing rate, and once all the black holes have evaporated and all of the protons decayed (if they do decay), the Universe will indeed be a very cold dark empty place - and will be evermore-so throughout its infinite future.

Regarding the "finite in spatial dimensions" question, we have no evidence that that suggests the Universe is compactifed (as suggested in your references) - I know, I conducted research on looking for this evidence twenty years ago, and nearly everything discovered since then has discounted this option (up to observable scales obviously) - the Universe could still be closed (making it appear like the T>0 section of de-Sitter space), and would then be finite spatially but infinite in the future time direction.

Mathematically nothing finite can exist infinitely apart from an infinite source.

This is not mathematics, it is simply ill-defined. What is an "infinite source"? If the Universe is open and un-compactified, it is infinite and contains an infinite number of anything you care to imagine. This requires no more (and no less) "source" than a finite universe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Just being real, posted 09-02-2010 6:28 AM Just being real has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1256 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 259 of 271 (579430)
09-04-2010 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by PaulK
09-02-2010 7:00 AM


Re: What counts as detection?
Thirdly if you assume an infinite past (as you do) you need to explain why we have not already reached the state of maximum entropy.

Not actually a problem in a universe with accelerating expansion. There doesn't have to be a maximum.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by PaulK, posted 09-02-2010 7:00 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 260 of 271 (580357)
09-08-2010 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by hooah212002
08-20-2010 10:22 AM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
"hooah212002" writes:

Well, I can prove to you that my dog is real when he bites your ass. I can prove that pavement is hard by slamming you down on it. I can prove a horse is real by riding it. I can prove I have gas by ripping a stinky ass fart.

Now prove your god is more real than my fart, because as it stands, he's not.

No you can't prove any of those things, sorry.

I already told you, it's not up to me to prove to you anything. It is not up to me to prove God to you, that's up to you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2010 10:22 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 261 of 271 (823861)
11-18-2017 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by jar
08-26-2010 7:13 PM


Re: bye, bye, first cause.
jar writes:

So the most likely outcome is just that, people propose a god and after testing the response will be, "Nope, that god don't hunt."

Of course, the possibility may exist that GOD resists our attempts to detect Her.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 08-26-2010 7:13 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2017 3:14 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 262 of 271 (823864)
11-18-2017 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
11-18-2017 2:45 AM


Re: bye, bye, first cause.
Phat writes:

Of course, the possibility may exist that GOD resists our attempts to detect Her.

Yeh, could be, but then she wouldn't be the Christian god would she? By all Christian accounts she's desperate for us to know her.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 11-18-2017 2:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 263 of 271 (823865)
11-18-2017 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
08-27-2010 9:44 AM


Re: bye, bye, first cause.
JBL,Long Ago Member writes:

I'm saying that if it is true that something cannot come from nothing (and so far I am unfamiliar with anything that says it can) then since something now exists, this requires that something always has existed. The key word here is "always." Because if there were ever a time when there was nothing, and something cannot come from nothing, then there would still only be nothing.

This guy actually made sense! I agree with his premise.

A singularity, if it once was, had to have always been. God, if God exists always existed. There is no logical way that something came from nothing.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 08-27-2010 9:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 11-18-2017 8:08 AM Phat has responded
 Message 265 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2017 9:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 266 by NoNukes, posted 11-18-2017 9:34 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 264 of 271 (823867)
11-18-2017 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
11-18-2017 7:38 AM


Re: bye, bye, first cause.
Phat writes:

This guy actually made sense! I agree with his premise.

A singularity, if it once was, had to have always been. God, if God exists always existed. There is no logical way that something came from nothing.

The singularity is not a "thing". It is a human description of the point where all the facts as we know them simply do not apply.

And "God, if God exists always existed." is just silly; a cute Chick Track bumper sticker.

Remember the order.

Logic ---> reason ---> reality.

Reality always trumps both logic and reason. They are only tools we can use to understand the reality but the reality trumps everything.

All of the evidence shows that this universe came into existence a little over 14 billion years ago.

Before that this universe simply did not exist.

We exist only in this Universe (assuming we actually exist). We did not exist before this universe.

If God exists in this universe then God did not exist before this universe.

If God exists but not in this universe then God is irrelevant to this universe.

But wait, there's more.

All of the evidence shows things ceasing to exist. Stars are born, and stars die. Fires start and fires go out.

Even if God did exist there is no reason to think God lasted longer than the initial moment of the Big Bang.

The question then is "Is there any evidence that God existed at some time and that God still exists today?"

Well, all the evidence shows is that if God exists then God is undetectable.

God may be logical; God may be reasonable but the reality says there is no evidence God exists.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 11-18-2017 7:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 4:31 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 265 of 271 (823868)
11-18-2017 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
11-18-2017 7:38 AM


Re: bye, bye, first cause.
Phat writes:

There is no logical way that something came from nothing.

Oh Phat, bless you. It's got nothing to do with logic - it's physics. The physics appear to say that something can come from nothing. Whatever nothing means.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 11-18-2017 7:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 266 of 271 (823869)
11-18-2017 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
11-18-2017 7:38 AM


Re: bye, bye, first cause.
This guy actually made sense! I agree with his premise.

If you accept an unproven premise, then you can believe anything. Phat, it appears that you are still in the process of getting your head together.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 11-18-2017 7:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 4:33 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 267 of 271 (823905)
11-19-2017 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by jar
11-18-2017 8:08 AM


Re: bye, bye, first cause.
There is a lot to debate here, but I'm tired so I will start only with this one:

All of the evidence shows that this universe came into existence a little over 14 billion years ago.

Before that this universe simply did not exist.

So how did the substance that made up the universe after the Big Bang come into existence?

If the answer is spontaneous creation, the solution existed before the explosion, if only in the form of a thought---


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 11-18-2017 8:08 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by jar, posted 11-19-2017 6:10 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 268 of 271 (823906)
11-19-2017 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by NoNukes
11-18-2017 9:34 AM


Re: bye, bye, first cause.
NN writes:

If you accept an unproven premise, then you can believe anything.

Ok, for the sake of argument I will state that I entertain his premise. It fits with my presuppositions. Technically I suppose I shouldn't accept it yet.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by NoNukes, posted 11-18-2017 9:34 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 269 of 271 (823908)
11-19-2017 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
11-19-2017 4:31 AM


Re: bye, bye, first cause.
Phat writes:

So how did the substance that made up the universe after the Big Bang come into existence?

If the answer is spontaneous creation, the solution existed before the explosion, if only in the form of a thought---

First, thoughts have no form or reality. There is no such thing as "only in the form of a thought." No thinker, no thought.

The substance that makes up the universe after the Big Bang came into existence over time and the forces and processes that ARE the universe.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 4:31 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 9:17 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 270 of 271 (823915)
11-19-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by jar
11-19-2017 6:10 AM


Re: bye, bye, first cause.
Sounds rather Pantheistic to me. The universe created itself out of nothing over time? What was before the singularity?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by jar, posted 11-19-2017 6:10 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 11-19-2017 10:14 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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