When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)

What if this universe is an emergent property of another universe or endless string of previous universes?What if the human understanding of cause and effect is imperfect?Also, intelligent design is usually associated with a given deity continuously 'tweaking' the universe, which is a position that constitutes a direct assault upon all science.You don't have to take my word for it, ask the primary proponents, the DI.Now if one believes that any given deity caused the singularity to expand and then allowed it to fully develop over the last 13.7 billion years or so according to the original conditions this deity may have set up, how can anyone tell the difference between that and a completely naturalistic explanation, provided there is no 'tweaking'?

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The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman RushdieThis rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

That's nice, you and yours are fine and to hell with everyone else.Obviously your wife did not carry or give birth to a child with a 14.7" head.She had some fine words to say about perfect design during the process, most of which are unprintable here.Fine example of Christian empathy from you, so-called ordained preacher and Hebrew scholar.

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The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman RushdieThis rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

Are jar and I the same person to you?That is quite flattering to me, perhaps you should check with jar as to his opinion.BTW, jar is a Christian and I am currently somewhere near the critical point where Spinoza, Campbell, Deism, and Universalist Unitarianism meet.Not the same person.You do realize you are arguing with, at least in our case, believers (of a more Socratic skeptical bent than you may be used to).Edited by anglagard, : add 'not the same person'

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The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman RushdieThis rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

I counter posit that there are people who can't understand this subsequent link because it goes over their headsPage not found | ScienceBlogs Then it is obviously reasonable that 50% of the US population should learn Chinese, since with such an anti-science attitude, they will soon discover their new masters are exactly what they have been begging for, especially considering they share the same RWA anti-Constitution traitor belief system.I helped eliminate the USSR back in my US Army Intelligence days, of course I can expect no respect from any anti-USA RWA (no insult is suitable enough to counter such anti-enlightenment crap) Perhaps you should discuss what ifs, since you obviously believe the Flintstones are a documentary. So what if the Flintstones is true fact? Argue that.Rock n' roll (sarcasm deleted)Edited by anglagard, : use 'subsequent link' instead of post for clarity

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The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman RushdieThis rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

Congratulations, in five years of posting here you are the first fundie ever to follow a link.Secondly, I will always consider you a source of new knowledge, false as it may be, just as I read up on fundie delusion literature.That is why I will always have more information than my opponents. In fact I probably know more about the history of your delusions than you do, not bad for a purported syphlitic with PTSD, eh?Edited by anglagard, : tried to provide a link, didn\'t workEdited by anglagard, : restore text

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The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman RushdieThis rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

Good ol' Buz, hadn't seen you lately and was beginning to worry you may have OD'ed on Comfrey tea or something.If you want to meet us halfway (a doubtful proposition), you may want to read something other than the Bible. Your words in this post remind me of Liebnitz' Monad Theory, which caught sick with Spinoza and was buried by Voltaire.For a rather hilarious account of how Liebnitz was pretty much wrong about everything except calculus, in particular his idea we live in the best of all possible worlds, read Candide, it is free on the net.Now for a quick review:Singularity - evidence: universal background radiation
Expansion of the universe - evidence: red shift (Doppler effect)
Coalescing of matter into planets and stars - evidence: gravity
Explosions of supernovas in order to create heavy elements - evidence: astronomy, radiation
Assembly of complex organic molecules in space - evidence: astronomy (spectroscopy) meteorites (chemistry)
Assembly of complex organic molecules into proto-RNA - evidence: chemistry (in the lab in front of your face)
Assembly of proto-RNA to life - evidence: forthcoming (the last 'missing link')
Evolution - evidence: physics, chemistry, geology, biology, agriculture, history and modern (as opposed to witch-doctor) medicineIf you would like to further understand the connection between the observed and the conclusions, I suggest using a library. You may want to start with Ridley's Genome or Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel.For a start.Oh, I forgot, you are beyond all learning as you are self-proclaimed infallible. Either that or the old saw concerning old dogs and new tricks.Did it ever occur to you or anyone of your ilk that cursing God's works and cursing all good works of humans in favor of making a graven idol of the Bible, contrary to the very text within, may be a big mistake?

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The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman RushdieThis rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen