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Author
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Topic: When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 81 of 702 (569378)
07-21-2010 4:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by Blue Jay
07-21-2010 4:04 PM
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Re: Logical Answer
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes: Before there was life, there was chemistry. The chemistry of the early earth is hypothesized to have been such that it produced many types of organic chemicals. These chemicals reacted with each other and produced more chemicals. So we have a hypothesis. Do we have any reproducible verifiable evidence to support this hypothesis? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Blue Jay, posted 07-21-2010 4:04 PM | | Blue Jay has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 127 of 702 (569501)
07-21-2010 11:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 82 by crashfrog
07-21-2010 4:21 PM
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Re: Logical Answer
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: Do you even know what those things are? You tell me if this answers your question. A virus is a small infectious agent that can replicate only inside the living cells of organisms. A prion, is an infectious agent composed primarily of protein. Prokaryotes are either archaea or bacteria.
crashfrog writes: Sure. Experiments in the Miller-Urey vein have proved that the conditions of the early Earth (known from geology and astrophysics) could produce chemical structures suitable for exploitation by early proto-life. I don't find where we know what the early Earth was like must less the conditions being known from geology and astrophysics. In fact CH4, NH3, and H2 is the mixture of gases Miller and Urey used in 1953 to mimic the conditions of the early earth. Today scientists beleive the atmosphere was full of oxidants, such as CO2 and N2 There is some information about the early earth. But there is much more that is not known. Until the exact conditions of the early earth is known one guess is as good as any other guess. So I will ask you the same question I asked bluejay. This is what I was asking bluejay about found in Message 80.
bluejay writes: Before there was life, there was chemistry. The chemistry of the early earth is hypothesized to have been such that it produced many types of organic chemicals. These chemicals reacted with each other and produced more chemicals. Do we have any reproducible verifiable evidence to support this hypothesis? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2010 4:21 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 129 of 702 (569503)
07-21-2010 11:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 116 by crashfrog
07-21-2010 10:39 PM
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Re: Almost Life?
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: Are viruses alive? Are prions alive? Can either survive without a living organism to host their existence? You did invite questions. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 116 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2010 10:39 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 132 of 702 (569507)
07-22-2010 12:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 128 by crashfrog
07-21-2010 11:42 PM
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Re: Logical Answer
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: What does the Bible say about prokaryotes and prions? That God created them after their own kind.
crashfrog writes: Geology and astrophysics is the basis from which we can determine the conditions of the early Earth. If you want to know the conditions and the reasoning from which we conclude those conditions, why not start with this? Why should I believe what Hugh R. Rollinson has to say about the early earth? He was not there, and I doubt very seriously he has talked to anyone who was.
crashfrog writes: And? You think, in over fifty years nobody's thought to expand the experiments in the light of our improving knowledge about the geochemical environment of the early Earth? Sure I did. But you didn't as you said:
crashfrog writes: Sure. Experiments in the Miller-Urey vein have proved that the conditions of the early Earth (known from geology and astrophysics) could produce chemical structures suitable for exploitation by early proto-life. All that experiment proved was that the conditions they tested could not produce life. All the other experiments have proved the same thing. I gave you information that scientist today disagree with the assumptions used as they believe they was incorrect. Nobody was there to record the conditions of the early Earth and the only way we can have any idea is guess at what we think they were. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2010 11:42 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 134 of 702 (569512)
07-22-2010 1:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 130 by crashfrog
07-21-2010 11:46 PM
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Re: Almost Life?
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: Some viruses can survive for decades in between hosts. I can find where they can lie dormant for short periods of time without a host. But they can not do their job without a host. But I find no mention of them surviving for decades.
crashfrog writes: But are they alive? That's what I asked. Is there a reason you insist on evading direct questions? They are not classified as alive. They are not classified as dead. Without a live host they can do nothing. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2010 11:46 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 136 of 702 (569515)
07-22-2010 1:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 133 by crashfrog
07-22-2010 12:30 AM
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Re: Logical Answer
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: If I had linked to you a book of Rollinson's opinions, you could dismiss them on whatever basis you chose. But that's not the text that I linked to you. It's not a work of opinion, it's a text on geochemistry. You should believe it for the same reason you should believe any legitimate science textbook - because it presents sourced, consensus science. Why should I believe one of your holy books? You tell me mine are a bunch of fables. Just because a bunch of people believe something that does not make it true. The majority of people on earth believe in a god but you don't. So a majority of any group does not rule.
crashfrog writes: The Earth was there to record the conditions, and its from the geochemical record of the Earth that those conditions can be determined. And any information produced by the Earth has to be interperted by mankind. Which is subject to the worldview of the person doing the interpertation. But if the conditions could be determined as you say they have. Then someone would have reproduced those conditions and then produced life. Fact is nobody knows what those conditions were and probably never will.
crashfrog writes: None of those experiments are done towards the goal of producing life. Then what was they looking for? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 133 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2010 12:30 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Almost Life?
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: Viruses don't have jobs. Sure they have a job. It is to reproduce and destroy. It can not reproduce without a host cell. They can and do destroy cells. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2010 1:10 AM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 139 of 702 (569519)
07-22-2010 1:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 137 by Blue Jay
07-22-2010 1:32 AM
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Re: Almost Life?
Hi jay,
bluejay writes: Before that point, some of the organism’s life-like functions were done by the environment (e.g. the environment controlled when the membrane divided, or proteins from the environment were used to replicate DNA). DNA is information. Where did that information come from? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 137 by Blue Jay, posted 07-22-2010 1:32 AM | | Blue Jay has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 141 by ringo, posted 07-22-2010 3:08 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 153 of 702 (569570)
07-22-2010 10:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 141 by ringo
07-22-2010 3:08 AM
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Re: Information
Hi Ringo, Welcome back.
Ringo writes: No. DNA is a molecule, Do you disagree that all of the information necessary for a living organism to grow and live reside in the nucleus of every cell. That tell the cell what role it will play in your body? These instructions come in the form of a molecule called DNA. DNA encodes a detailed set of plans, like a blueprint for building different parts of the cell. The DNA molecule comes in the form of a "double helix" ladder built with the four letter DNA alphabet: A, C, T and G. These letters make words which make sentences that are called genes. Now if I got any of this wrong please correct where I misunderstand it. I am still interested in where that original information came from. I understand that my DNA came from my parents. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 141 by ringo, posted 07-22-2010 3:08 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 157 of 702 (569576)
07-22-2010 11:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 140 by crashfrog
07-22-2010 2:44 AM
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Re: Logical Answer
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: It's not a holy book. It's a fully-sourced science textbook, as you might find used to teach a graduate-level course on geochemistry. It's authoritative. If I appeal to authority it is wrong. If you appeal to authority it is OK. Please explain why? This is a book you believe in and trust, that makes it a holy book to you. Just as my Bible is to me.
crashfrog writes: The evidence that leads scientists to the conclusions they hold is part of that textbook. I don't doubt that. But I don't have to accept it or anything that man has written in any book. I get to make up my mind on the evidence as I see it. Isn't that how you decided there is no God?
crashfrog writes: As we've seen over the years, there's a limit to how much a worldview can bend the evidence. If a worldview is in factual error holding it in the face of the contradictory evidence simply becomes untenable, until one has only two choices - stop exposing oneself to the evidence, or give up the worldview. Or you could come up with a hypothesis that supported your worldview using the available evidence.
crashfrog writes: If the evidence really was in favor of creationism creationists wouldn't have to play games to ignore it, as you're doing. Are you telling me you don't believe in the creation of the universe? Did the universe always exist? If it was not created where did it come from? Was it created by an intelligent designer? Or Was it created by some unknown particle that existed in non existence but appeared out of that non existence and formed the universe?
crashfrog writes: Exactly what they found - that organic biomolecules could have an inorganic origin under the conditions likely to be found on the early Earth. Well I happened to be alive and in junior high at the time of that experiment. At that time it was hailed in the media as the search for the proof that life evolved from existing non life. It 1864 spontaneous generation had been effectively disproven. Non life could not produce life. Life produces life that is a fact. The question here is was it designed or was it a series of accidents. So you spin it as you please but I was there at the time it took place, so I don't have to take the popular spin of the event. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 140 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2010 2:44 AM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 158 of 702 (569579)
07-22-2010 11:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 154 by subbie
07-22-2010 10:22 AM
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Re: Information
Hi subbie,
Didn't life have to exist before it could mutate? So where did the original information come from? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 154 by subbie, posted 07-22-2010 10:22 AM | | subbie has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 159 by subbie, posted 07-22-2010 11:15 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Information
Hi WK,
Wounded King writes: I disagree, there is a lot more to it than that, I was not trying to write a book on DNA. Just a simple overview.
Wounded King writes: No, it doesn't. What it 'encodes' is a wide repertoire of proteins and functional RNA molecules. It also contains numerous structural and regulatory regions. Are you telling me that each Gene does not encode information how to make an individual protein? Are you telling me that information is not DNA?
Wounded King writes: The interaction between varying genetic patterns, such as those produced by mutation, and the environment. Successful patterns which promote their own replication tend to propagate. I was not asking where present information comes from. I was asking where the original information in the first cell came from that tells it how to reproduce. Was it designed? Was it an accident? What produced the information? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Sucking up the spin
Hi WK,
Wounded King writes: You don't have to, but apparently you do. If you take the media reporting of something to be definitive then you seem to be exactly taking the popular spin of the event, as opposed to its reality. The media in the 50's reported the news. They did not have an agenda to push. But you are correct concerning the current media. It sucks, as it pushes its own worldview. I believe nothing that I read and very little of what I see. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 164 of 702 (569595)
07-22-2010 11:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 159 by subbie
07-22-2010 11:15 AM
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Re: Information
Hi subbie,
subbie writes: But mutations and changes can occur before there is life. As others have explained to you, it's called chemistry. Well it has not been explained to me how a lifeless form can mutate. If that was possible wouldn't some lab be producing life as we speak? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by subbie, posted 07-22-2010 11:15 AM | | subbie has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 174 by subbie, posted 07-22-2010 4:59 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 166 of 702 (569598)
07-22-2010 12:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 163 by ringo
07-22-2010 11:45 AM
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Re: Information
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes: There is no intelligence outside the molecule required for any of its reactions to happen. I did not say there was anything outside of the DNA to cause any of its reactions to happen. The Genes which contain the DNA information tells it to make other molecule called proteins. These proteins enable cells to preform special functions. I did ask the question of whether this information was provided by intelligence or happened by accident. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 163 by ringo, posted 07-22-2010 11:45 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 168 by jar, posted 07-22-2010 12:17 PM | | ICANT has not replied | | | Message 170 by ringo, posted 07-22-2010 12:28 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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