When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)

So the default position is invisible man with magical powers until someone can explain it better to you?I think the point was, where do you draw the line.Take this example:
Is every rock on earth designed, or did they form naturally?Is every rock that orbits a star designed, or did they form naturally?...and, how can you tell the difference?- Oni

There most certainly is empirical evidence for the natural formation of stars and planets. And as for living organisms, well, there is evidence for the natural emergence of the elements that all living organisms are formed from and how these elements came to be on a terrestrial planet.The point is that the position of an invisible creator with magical powers need not ever be proposed so long as science can be done on the natural world. Why limit any of it? Fine tuned as compared to what? Can you show me another universe that isn't fine tuned, or is this type of universe the only one you know of? Intelligent as compared to what? It is your own ego that calls you an intelligent species. We are just another species with a trait that happens to be cognitively advanced as compared to other sentient species. Its origin is the same as any other trait, like wood pecking. No such claim has ever been made. You need to get more familiar with the evolutionary theory, which would clear up your complete misunderstanding.- Oni

Its real simple, Buz, how did the designer create it then?The above quote better suits a god-like designer and should read:

quote:

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Ah, so suddenly, I mean suddenly, from a god-like designer, the first living organism just popped into existence equipped with it all, including the capability to reproduce itselfy.

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That's spontaneous creation, the kind you support.- Oni

There's a billion galaxies, each with billions of stars, each star with the potential to have planets orbiting it. What are the odds that ONE single planet would be just right? Pretty good, eh?So either your creator needed a billion billion billion tries to get it right, which requires the use of magic also. OR, given enough chances, life emerges on a terrestrial planet with the right combination of components - no magic required.Usually its best to go with the theory that doesn't require one to postulate a magician. Why didn't you say so in the first place? Random people on the internet who "absolutely know" things are the most credible of people. This thread is about a designer, its NOT about the particular cultural, mythical god that you happen to, by a sheer coincidental, geographical chance, believe in.Let your ego-centric beliefs go for a second and view it objectively. Why the Bible? Why not the Koran, or any other religious text?What gives you any assurance that you happened to, for as far back as humanity has existed, pick the right god out of the literally thousands that have be postulated?You must be the awesom-est dude ever! What luck that you happen to be born in the 20th century, in America. Man, if you were born in the Middle East who knows which wrong god you'd believe in...or 1000 years ago, that would have been worse! You would have believed in multiple gods and been wrong more than once. Good for you, though. Give yourself a pat on the back.Let me ask, do you think that people who believed in the Greek gods didn't believe as strongly as you do in their gods? Or African tribes-people that believe in their gods? Or Hindus? Or Muslims?Who the fuck do you think you are to preach such arrogant nonsense about invisible entities? Either they're ALL as likely as yours, or NONE is likely at all. Playing favorites just makes you out to be an asshole.If fear convinced you then enjoy it. But don't bring that childish drivel into a science forum, or a thread, that YOU started, that never was specific about a god. It was supposed to be about design.In your words: I am sorry if I come across angry - OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Thats' cool... That's insane, illogical, and unsupported nonsense. The fact that you even say this shows that you are not interested in what empirical evidence tells us about our human evolution. Why anyone here would waste a second of their time trying to help you understand, while you insist on making ridiculous claims, baffles me. And no one on this planet has any clue how this happened, they are still far from knowing that. Why do you insist on applying your limited/barely any knowledge on the subject to questions that even the most experienced of physicist couldn't answer? In your own words: "It makes no difference what we believe..."- Oni

I love lamp.- Oni

That's your belief, ICANT, you have described no mechanism. A mechanism would be how god created the universe. And it wouldn't be yours, it would just be how it was done because it would be testible, verifiable, empirical evidence. That's not a mechanism, that's a statement. Mechanisms would be String/M-theory, LQG, etc. All hypothetical at this point, and perhaps will always be that way, but at least one side has a proposed set of mechanisms. Something, in some sense, tangible to work with. You have been told, a shitload of times, by cavediver and son goku, that the Big Bang was the universe going from you state (form) to another state (form).The reason you fuck that up is because you like to add all sort of nonsense about eternity and god to that simple statement of theirs with your own beliefs. Wrong. The BBT explains the observations. That's what theories do. It's not a blind hypothesis, it has observable evidence to support it. There are observable phenomena that it explains. No you don't, you don't have any choices. The Bible tells you NOTHING about how the universe was created, it just says god did it. It says nothing about how god did it. You are still left with the need for a mechanism.The other realm, science, has said nothing absolute about the origin of the universe. So no chaice is needed.You are forcing yourself to pick a side between (A) your belief, and (B) your strawman. Pick either one, you created them both.- Oni

Yes, correct sir.- Oni

Can you build a super computer, today?Why do you lack an infinite amount of knowledge, today?You have the means, the access to information, people willing to teach you, yet you bask in your ignorance and point fingers at others for not having certain knowledge on things that they just simply couldn't have known?You CAN know, so why do you remain ignorant on various subjects?I'm sure that humans who lived 100,000 years ago had all the knowledge and intelligence their environment required for them to survive, why? because we're here today. However, today's human would probably have not survived given the same environment.By today's standards, they weren't so knowledgable, by their standards in those days, we know useless information and lack all the survival skills they did. What good is all the knowledge of today if you'd be dead in a week from some environmental hazard?Who was truly more intelligent? Genetics and environment determine intelligence, for the most part.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.