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Author
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Topic: When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 479 of 702 (571244)
07-30-2010 10:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 29 by Buzsaw
07-20-2010 10:11 PM
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Re: Logical Answer
quote:
wood to petrify. No design is required for a volcanoe to erupt. No intelligence is required for stalagmites to form in a cave
What makes these complex processes Different then the complex processes in the human body?
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The unlikelihood of abiogenesis from non life developing would be grossly compounded from these thousand models.
We have several working models for abiogenesis. With most of them it's highly likely it happened many many times. I'm sure these have been pointed out to you in the past. Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 07-20-2010 10:11 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 480 by Buzsaw, posted 07-30-2010 10:32 PM | | DC85 has replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 481 of 702 (571249)
07-30-2010 10:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 478 by Buzsaw
07-30-2010 7:41 PM
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Re: More Of Your Sauce
That's not a mechanism either. That's a statement. Big Bang is observable buzzsaw... It's still happening. Big Bang has never and will never be an explanation for the beginning of all things. No one has stated it is. It would be greatly appreciated if you would stop spouting crap that has been pointed out many times to be crap.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 478 by Buzsaw, posted 07-30-2010 7:41 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 483 of 702 (571252)
07-30-2010 10:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 480 by Buzsaw
07-30-2010 10:32 PM
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Re: Logical Answer
ntelligence; no intelligence implicated in petrification of wood, etc. whereas DNA, genes, the human eye and childbirth all implicate intelligence. You neglected to explain why one complex process requires intelligence and the other does not. Please do so.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 480 by Buzsaw, posted 07-30-2010 10:32 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Re: More Of Your Sauce
I thought before the Big Bang there was no time, so in order for the Big Bang to use this general relativity of spacetime there would need to be time. But since there was none, so how could it begin to use it?
How can God exist outside and create the Universe? Why does God's complexity mean it wasn't created but the Universe's complexity mean it was? It annoys me when creationists ask questions that are suppose to be a problem for science yet forget to apply it to the beliefs they have. I admit I'm no cosmologist so to be honest I've never really cared what caused Big Bang. I Know enough about the subject to know that's it's observable through the expansion of the Universe and red shift. We know this is happening. I don't understand why not knowing how it happened changes the fact that it is happening. Creationists seem to have a problem with this as they also have this absurd idea that that the fact evolution doesn't explain life origin some how makes evolution false. Unlike your God we can observe both evolution and the expansion of the Universe. Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 536 of 702 (571397)
07-31-2010 3:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 532 by ICANT
07-31-2010 2:40 PM
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Re: Re Designer
An intelligent designer can not be a part of his/her creation. Can I play the same game as you? Where did the intelligent designer's "blue print" come from? Who assembled it? Saying God has always existed does not answer my question. I am using your logic. You claim complexity and "programming" is proof of a designer and that it's the only way for complex systems to be complex then your god MUST be designed. You cannot have it both ways. If you say that God was not "Intelligently designed" then you MUST concede that complex systems do not require a designer. I don't understand how you can justify this in your mind. Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 532 by ICANT, posted 07-31-2010 2:40 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 545 of 702 (571427)
07-31-2010 5:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 540 by ICANT
07-31-2010 4:38 PM
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Re: More Of Your Sauce
Could you present proof or even an argument that any information can be created by any natural method?
Indeed it's called evolution.
We do know that there is coded information in DNA. I suspect your definition is different then mine but I'll agree.
We do know that information comes from a mind I don't know this nor do I see it. The only place a mind is required is to interpret it as information other then that no mind seems to be required.
We have no proof that information can be created by natural means. Indeed we observe evolution everyday and know stars form very well by themselves as well as the planets that orbit them and these things are highly complex.
If you do now would be a time to present it and then you could claim your Nobel. If you can show God exists without resorting to the absurdity "Complexity means it was designed" you would get far more then that.
It includes everything that has existed since the beginning or will ever begin to exist that you or any man can see. So you ignore his question and hope we don't see that you "complexity means it was designed" argument is flawed because for some reason you pick and choose which complex things are designed and which are not. Why does a complex Universe require a designer and a complex god not? Why am I wrong for asking that question? It seems reasonable.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 540 by ICANT, posted 07-31-2010 4:38 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 564 by ICANT, posted 07-31-2010 7:36 PM | | DC85 has replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 569 of 702 (571464)
07-31-2010 8:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 564 by ICANT
07-31-2010 7:36 PM
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Re: More Of Your Sauce
There are so many laws in effect to keep this universe running like a fine watch which would take an engineering feat a little better that what mankind can produce. Ahh So it's this argument. "Universe has the perfect balance for things as we know it to exist so that might be proof of a creator" Yet another absurdity.... Why? Because that only shows that things exist the way they do BECAUSE the Universe exists the way it does. If the Universe was a different way then things would exist a different way. The fatal flaw in your logic is that you assume the things in and the laws within the Universe were created to be in it rather then the product of the nature of the Universe.
And what does that have to do with information. Information being: The dictionary definition (computer science case in particular) will suffice: "Processed, stored or transmitted data." Your talking about DNA correct? Let me Understand you Stars can form because of natural processes but DNA cannot. Even though we observe changes in DNA from population to population and generation to generation from the very natural process of imperfect copies of imperfect copies replicating imperfectly.... That would be evolution in a nutshell Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 564 by ICANT, posted 07-31-2010 7:36 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 578 by ICANT, posted 08-01-2010 12:23 AM | | DC85 has replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 570 of 702 (571467)
07-31-2010 8:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 565 by ICANT
07-31-2010 7:42 PM
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Re: Information
Well no random mutation will only alter existing information. It does not create new information. Now who told you this? Have you studied microbiology?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 565 by ICANT, posted 07-31-2010 7:42 PM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 571 by Bikerman, posted 07-31-2010 9:02 PM | | DC85 has not replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 574 of 702 (571505)
07-31-2010 11:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 573 by ICANT
07-31-2010 11:34 PM
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Re: More Of Your Sauce
he intelligent existent one has just as much chance of poping out of nowhere as the universe did. The eternal existent one does not reside in the Universe. His existence is where the universe resides. Since we've claimed neither it's pointless for you mention. Apparently you don't understand that we're using YOUR logic when asking such things. You assert 1.complexity requires a creator 2. information requires a creator 3.intelligence requires a creator 4.existence requires a creator Then by default your god MUST apply. You cannot have it both ways Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 573 by ICANT, posted 07-31-2010 11:34 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 582 by ICANT, posted 08-01-2010 1:25 AM | | DC85 has replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 580 of 702 (571516)
08-01-2010 12:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 578 by ICANT
08-01-2010 12:23 AM
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Re: More Of Your Sauce
You mean you don't believe there are laws of physics that control the universe. The universe is the way it is because those laws are what they are. Of course and some laws are the way they are because of others... If one of them was different the things in the Universe would be different. I'm saying that they aren't in perfect balance for things to exist the way they do but that things exist the way they do because of the way it is. (I do hope you got that  )
I thought DNA was inherited. Then as it is needed it divides and multiplies through specific information contained in tje DMA pf each human cell. The amount of information contained in each cells DNA is more than is in a set of Encyclopaedia Britannica. That information is contained in almost all the cells in the human body. So no stars forming can not compare to what human DNA accomplishes. Last I checked reproduction was a natural process and that is the driving force. Gravity is to star formation as reproduction is to DNA formation.
We have point mutation, frame-shift mutation, deletion, insertion, inversion and DNA expresion mutation. I can't find where any of these are good. I think that my DNA being different from my parents and not just a combination is a good thing
Point mutation is a change in one base of the gene. Frame-shift is when one or more bases are inserted or deleted. Deletion is when DNA is missing. Insertion is when extra information is used which results in nonfunctional protein. Inversion is when an entire section of DNA is reversed. DNA expression mutation is when proteins are made at the wrong time and type. Also it can be too little or too much protein. That being the case how can we evolve upwards. We can only degenerate until we eventually die when enough mutations happen. Why would this ever be the case? You assume every single mutation will appear in the population as a whole? Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 578 by ICANT, posted 08-01-2010 12:23 AM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 586 of 702 (571525)
08-01-2010 1:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 582 by ICANT
08-01-2010 1:25 AM
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Re: More Of Your Sauce
The universe exists. It was either created by an intelligent being, has existed forever, or poped into existence out of nowhere or non-existence for a better word.
Why are those the only options? Do you know the nature of the Universe? Perhaps the universe's past is it's future or it's future triggered it's past. We can come up with many and it doesn't make any of them true.
I did assert that the etenal existent intelligent creator was existence from which all things began to exist God is not composed of information? Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 582 by ICANT, posted 08-01-2010 1:25 AM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 595 by ICANT, posted 08-01-2010 2:43 AM | | DC85 has replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 608 of 702 (571631)
08-01-2010 3:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 595 by ICANT
08-01-2010 2:43 AM
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Re: More Of Your Sauce
They are the only ones I know of. If you have any other options I am all ears. But I did
quote:
Perhaps the universe's past is it's future or it's future triggered it's past.
I'm not saying it's the case but is it not an option? Do you understand the nature of the Universe? The nature of time?
God is all everything. He told Moses to tell the peole I AM sent me. That I AM is everything that has ever existed or will exist including all knowledge. yet He/it created everything? So the Universe has always existed? Where is this intelligence?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 595 by ICANT, posted 08-01-2010 2:43 AM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 620 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2010 12:43 PM | | DC85 has replied |
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DC85
Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: 05-06-2003
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Message 683 of 702 (571897)
08-02-2010 10:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 620 by ICANT
08-02-2010 12:43 PM
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Re: More Of Your Sauce
quote:
Perhaps the universe's past is it's future or it's future triggered it's past.
Please explain how that would be possible. Time is relative and dependant on space.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 620 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2010 12:43 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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