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Author Topic:   Spider-Man or Superman
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1 of 70 (569763)
07-23-2010 5:57 PM


Who is better (not more powerful- obviously that goes to Superman)?
Who has more character and depth?
I would suggest that Spider-Man is more of an every man with issues that people can relate to. This make him more relate-able than a megapowerfull alien.
What do other the other fine people on this site 'reckon?'

Replies to this message:
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AdminSlev
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 03-28-2010


Message 2 of 70 (569840)
07-23-2010 11:36 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Spider-Man or Superman thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 70 (569842)
07-23-2010 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
07-23-2010 5:57 PM


Spider-man. This is part of a general trend of Marvel being better than DC.
Make Mine Marvel!

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 4 of 70 (569848)
07-24-2010 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
07-23-2010 5:57 PM


I agree with Crash. I find that Marvel takes a more "human" approach to their superheroes, they've got more "human" problems than those of DC.

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 5 of 70 (569855)
07-24-2010 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
07-23-2010 5:57 PM


Spider-Man, for sure.
Superman, being ultimately powerful and ultimately good, is boring from an artistic standpoint. It takes very little creativity to come up with a superhero like Superman.
Because there is one specific means of defeating Superman, all Superman plots revolve entirely around that one weakness, which makes all the stories about him boring, as well.
Furthermore, you don't really even get very good action scenes in Superman movies, because he just stands there and finishes all his problems with a single punch.
Spider-Man, Batman and Wolverine, on the other hand, have to actually use some skill, which makes for interesting fight-scene choreography.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 6 of 70 (569857)
07-24-2010 9:05 AM


Ahh, Spidey vs. Supes. It's weighty questions like this that make EvC the hotbed of top level intellectual discourse that it is today. Who says we've gone downhill?!
Firstly, Crash, Huntard; be honest now... When was the last time you actually cracked open a brand new comic book? Because whilst your "Marvel is more human" criticism might have been true twenty years ago, it's no longer completely accurate. DC has gone through a whole lot of revamps and retcons in order to make their stern, patrician older-brother type heroes a little more empathetic. It's all personal taste of course and Your Mileage May Vary, but for me, DC have the edge right now. They just have more of the better creators than Marvel.
Having said all that, I probably have to come down on the side of Spider-Man and it's because he is more human and more sympathetic. To the point of being a whiny emo-bitch on occasion (anyone see Marvel Zombies? Even undead, flesh-eating Spider-Man is a whiny little bitch. "I ATE MY WIFE AND AUNT! WHY DID I DO THAT?!"). I think a big part of the appeal is that whilst it's difficult for a kid to imagine that he's an alien sent to Earth, it is far easier to imagine that there's a good chance of being bitten by a radioactive spider... even if it is more likely to give you an itchy rash than super-powers. And whilst Kal-El pretends to be mild mannered Clark Kent, he really isn't. Whereas Spidey really is a little nebbish. That makes him easier for geeky teenage readers to relate to.
Of course Superman is a very important character, so I don't want to talk him down. He may not have been the first super-hero, but he is certainly the trope codifier. The "S" symbol is one of the most iconic and recognisable images in the world. Superman's status as a moral paragon and his ridiculously over-the-top power mark him out as a rather more mythic figure than most Marvel characters, almost godlike. That can make his stories pretty inspirational, but damn it must make him hard to write. He's difficult to seriously challenge, a constant narrative problem with the character. But if a talented writer can embrace that mythic element with Supes, it can really work; the recent All-Star Superman by Grant Morrison is a good example.
So on balance, Spider-man rather than Superman, because the former is just more human and sympathetic, but I don't think that you can extrapolate that to the whole DC vs. Marvel thing.
Mutate and Survive

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 07-24-2010 11:06 AM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 9 by Larni, posted 07-24-2010 11:07 AM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 14 by hERICtic, posted 07-24-2010 5:52 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 7 of 70 (569864)
07-24-2010 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
07-23-2010 5:57 PM


Spidey FTW
Gwen Stacy and MJ vs. Lois Lane.
'Nuff said.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 70 (569865)
07-24-2010 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Granny Magda
07-24-2010 9:05 AM


When was the last time you actually cracked open a brand new comic book
I'm working my way through "Civil War" right now. For what it's worth DC's "Kingdom Come" was probably the most Marvel-like of DC storylines, and I'll set it against "House of M" or "Civil War" (so far) any day.
You show me something from the DC side that even approaches Joss Whedon's run on "Astonishing X-Men" and then maybe we can have a discussion about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Granny Magda, posted 07-24-2010 9:05 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Granny Magda, posted 07-24-2010 12:01 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 9 of 70 (569866)
07-24-2010 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Granny Magda
07-24-2010 9:05 AM


DC has gone through a whole lot of revamps and retcons in order to make their stern, patrician older-brother type heroes a little more empathetic.
Probably around about the time Dikto left Marvel to join DC and again when JMS stopped writing for Marvel and went to DC (like as not because of the dire ending to OMD.
Dark Knight Returns does stand out though.
but he is certainly the trope codifier
Do you go to tvtropes much?
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Granny Magda, posted 07-24-2010 9:05 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 10 of 70 (569871)
07-24-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
07-24-2010 11:06 AM


Hi Crash,
I'm working my way through "Civil War" right now.
Yeah, I liked civil war, although I couldn't buy into the whole "Whose side are you on?" bit. We're on Captain America's side. Obviously Because he's Captain America. Plus, Stark comes across as a massive douchebag throughout. I liked the fluid the crossover arcs ran from CW into Secret Invasion into Dark Reign though, I thought that worked well, especially compared to the awful and pointless crossovers of my youth... arrgh.
For what it's worth DC's "Kingdom Come" was probably the most Marvel-like of DC storylines, and I'll set it against "House of M" or "Civil War" (so far) any day.
Kingdom Come is one I'm keen to get hold of. If nothing else, the art is amazing.
House of M was bloody great... right up until the end. I'm not keen on deus ex machinas. (Spoilers follow!)
I mean, "No more mutants"? Yeah right. No more unpopular mutants maybe. Pretty much all the A-listers who were de-powered have had their abilities restored. Pointless. If you want to get rid of a few z-list muties, what's wrong with a good massacre? That's what sentinels are for!
You show me something from the DC side that even approaches Joss Whedon's run on "Astonishing X-Men" and then maybe we can have a discussion about it.
Again, I haven't read Whedon's X-Men, but if you recommend it, I'll hunt it down.
My recent-ish DC picks would be;
Geoff Johns run on Green Lantern. Starting with GL: Rebirth and running to date. GJ plots his books way ahead of schedule, so he can foreshadow and bring stuff in a little bit at a time. The central character of Hal Jordan is better realised than ever before and some of his horrific continuity snarls have been turned into positive virtues (Parallax). Gradually builds up to a couple of big cross-continuity events.
Grant Morrison on Batman, especially the Batman and Son story line. Runs into the current Batman and Robin series. Morrison tends to divide fans, but for my money, no-one in comics writes better dialogue. He has the same knack Tarantino has for writing dialogue that's witty an clever but still feels natural.
52 is fun, a weekly comic that spanned a year. It has probably the closest thing to Marvel-style storytelling you'll find at DC. With so many issues, there was plenty of room for lots of focus on character development. Some strands are better than others, but with so much going on, there should be something for everyone.
Captain Atom: Armageddon is good. CA is stranded amongst the badass and edgy 90s douche-weasels of the Wildstorm universe. *shudder*
Er... what else? Starman is very character focused and very good. The new Green Arrow series is promising. Justice League: Generation lost has me hooked.
All told, we're pretty lucky. Looking back at the comics I used to read back in the Eighties, they were bloody awful. Modern comics are more squarely aimed at an older audience, so they've kind of grown up with me. They're better written and the art is just on a totally different level. We're a bunch of very lucky fanboys.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 07-24-2010 5:44 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 11 of 70 (569872)
07-24-2010 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Larni
07-24-2010 11:07 AM


Hi Larni,
Probably around about the time Dikto left Marvel to join DC and again when JMS stopped writing for Marvel and went to DC (like as not because of the dire ending to OMD.
DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT ONE MORE DAY! GRRR! Quesada should stick to drawing - which he's bloody briliant at - and not screw up the continuity with MAGIC RETCONS! AND LET ME TELL YOU ANOTHER THING... arrgh.. urk...
*suffers brain aneurysm *
Do you go to tvtropes much?
er... never heard of it...
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 12 of 70 (569910)
07-24-2010 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Granny Magda
07-24-2010 12:23 PM


After collecting for 20 years, having 10,000 comics (Mostly Marvel and Image) I have stopped per my wifes orders.
Some silly thing about paying bills and the such. Sheesh.
The Dark Reign run was awesome. Having the leads be the villians made the stories much more interesting..........and violent.
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 70 (569912)
07-24-2010 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Granny Magda
07-24-2010 12:01 PM


We're on Captain America's side. Obviously Because he's Captain America. Plus, Stark comes across as a massive douchebag throughout.
Really? I think Stark makes some pretty reasonable points throughout. I think it's a bit much to ask a society to just trust unaccountable individuals with secret identities and access to incredible power - including weapons - to use those powers in a way that's best for everybody. We certainly don't have that kind of trust in our military or in our civil police, but we're talking about people in suits that give them the destructive power of entire armies, people with powers that can alter reality itself. And it's generally understood that anonymous vigilantism is not a positive force for a civilization.
I'm obviously not saying the solution as presented in Civil War was the right one, but certainly a program of voluntary superhero registration and training would be a necessary part of a society of superhumans and Homo superior And there has to be some kind of regulation of superpowers; we regulate firearms, after all.
Again, I haven't read Whedon's X-Men, but if you recommend it, I'll hunt it down.
It's quite fabulous, as you might expect. Try to ignore that it informed the godawful third X-Men movie.
We're a bunch of very lucky fanboys.
I'm really very new to this fandom, despite being fairly familiar with superheroes by virtue of osmosis - there's a lot of overlap with the comics fandom in the other nerd circles I'm a part of. This summer I've been trying to expose myself to the latest and greatest of Marvel storylines, as well as some of the good stuff from the recent past.
When that's done I'll see about getting to the DC storylines you've mentioned.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 14 of 70 (569916)
07-24-2010 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Granny Magda
07-24-2010 9:05 AM


Granny writes:
So on balance, Spider-man rather than Superman, because the former is just more human and sympathetic, but I don't think that you can extrapolate that to the whole DC vs. Marvel thing.
I disagree. I have not collected DC recently, but overall, nearly all Marvel characters/teams were much more "down to earth" than the DC rivals. It seemed like many more characters from DC flew, were from outerspace, had sillier names and lousy costumes.
For DC, you have BatMAN. SuperMAN. Wonder WOMAN. GREEN Lantern. SuperBOY. HawkMAN. MARTIAN MANhunter, StarMAN, Animal MAN, BLUE Beetle, GREEN Arrow Those are just a few examples.
Its like they just throw out the gender, color or where they are from to make a character.
Yeah, Marvel has a few...but not even close.
From the Justice League cartoon: you have Batman (human), Wonder Woman (not human per se), Martian Manhunter (alien), Superman (alien), Aquaman (not sure, but wearing orange???), Hawkgirl (alien) and Green Lantern (human with alien technology).
So down to "earth" doesnt seem to apply when most arent even human so to speak.
In comparison, the Avengers: Thor (I suppose you could call him an alien), Cap America (human), Hulk (human),Wasp (human), Iron Man (human).

This message is a reply to:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 15 of 70 (569919)
07-24-2010 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
07-24-2010 5:44 PM


I think it's a bit much to ask a society to just trust unaccountable individuals with secret identities and access to incredible power - including weapons - to use those powers in a way that's best for everybody.
Except for the fact that they have been for decades. That kinda changes the trust balance.
And it's generally understood that anonymous vigilantism is not a positive force for a civilization.
In the real world, perhaps. But in the world of comics, it's been a net positive by any measure you'd care to name.
And there has to be some kind of regulation of superpowers; we regulate firearms, after all.
The distinction, of course, is that in regulating firearms, we are merely putting some restrictions on who may own weapons. By regulating superpowers, you are restricting the very abilities that make superheros who they are. It would be like requiring a boxer or an MMA fighter to register themselves before they be allowed to go in public.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 07-24-2010 5:44 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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