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Author Topic:   the bluegenes Challenge (bluegenes and RAZD only)
RAZD
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Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 181 of 222 (672008)
09-01-2012 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by bluegenes
09-01-2012 4:33 PM


Re: Still avoiding Guernica,
Hi bluegenes

Connect Guernica to the topic of the thread, and try to do so lucidly.

I will ... when you answer the question

What is Guernica?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by bluegenes, posted 09-01-2012 4:33 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by bluegenes, posted 09-01-2012 5:06 PM RAZD has responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2967
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 182 of 222 (672010)
09-01-2012 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by RAZD
09-01-2012 4:41 PM


Re: Still avoiding Guernica, indeed, but not the topic of the thread!
RAZD writes:

What is Guernica?

Google is your friend.

If you want to bring something into the topic, then it's up to you to explain its relevance. Be lucid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2012 4:41 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2012 5:50 PM bluegenes has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 183 of 222 (672013)
09-01-2012 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by bluegenes
09-01-2012 5:06 PM


Re: Still avoiding Guernica, indeed, but not the topic of the thread
Hi bluegenes

Google is your friend.

Curiously, Google doesn't tell me what you think about it.

You realize that issue avoidance is a symptom.

What is Guernica?

Enjoy.

You don't know it's off topic until you answer and we can move on.

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by bluegenes, posted 09-01-2012 5:06 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by bluegenes, posted 09-01-2012 6:19 PM RAZD has responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2967
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 184 of 222 (672017)
09-01-2012 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by RAZD
09-01-2012 5:50 PM


Find me a fairy, then I'll discuss art on an art thread.
RAZD writes:

Curiously, Google doesn't tell me what you think about it.

And curiously, you haven't connected what I think about Guernica to the topic.

RAZD writes:

You realize that issue avoidance is a symptom.

Really? If you think it's a symptom of something bad, Doc, then stop avoiding the issue and present some positive evidence that supernatural beings exist outside our heads.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2012 5:50 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2012 6:27 PM bluegenes has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 185 of 222 (672019)
09-01-2012 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by bluegenes
09-01-2012 6:19 PM


avoidance again -- what is Guernica
Hi bluegenes,

One has to wonder why such sever and persistent avoidance reaction to a simple question, why the avoidance for so many posts: you reply by you don't answer the question ... and your replies are just (another) continuous attempts to shift the conversation to something (anything) else ...

"What is Guernica" is a simple question, and should be easy to answer.

Or is something blocking you from answering?

Curious.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by bluegenes, posted 09-01-2012 6:19 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by bluegenes, posted 09-01-2012 7:20 PM RAZD has responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2967
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 186 of 222 (672023)
09-01-2012 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by RAZD
09-01-2012 6:27 PM


Re: avoidance again -- what is Guernica
RAZD writes:

One has to wonder why such sever and persistent avoidance reaction to a simple question, why the avoidance for so many posts: you reply by you don't answer the question ... and your replies are just (another) continuous attempts to shift the conversation to something (anything) else ...

One may have to wonder. But not this one. One of us is in a position to know.

Curiously (and amusingly) it isn't actually very strange to try to shift the conversation from paintings to supernatural beings ("anything"?) on a thread which is about supernatural beings, not paintings.

What you seem to be suggesting is that my views on a painting will have some impact on the question of whether or not SBs exist outside human minds. I know very well that, whatever I answer, the existential status of SBs will remain the same .

While that demonstrates the irrelevance of the question, it's not the only reason I'm not answering.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2012 6:27 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2012 10:19 PM bluegenes has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 187 of 222 (672034)
09-01-2012 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by bluegenes
09-01-2012 7:20 PM


Re: avoidance again -- what is Guernica
Hi bluegenes

While that demonstrates the irrelevance of the question, it's not the only reason I'm not answering.

Another interesting way to rationalize to yourself ....

... while still avoiding the question.

Let me know when you want to participate -- and answer the question -- rather that obfuscate.

Enjoy.

the question was first asked in Message 163 ... nothing but obfuscation since = not debate.

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by bluegenes, posted 09-01-2012 7:20 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by bluegenes, posted 09-02-2012 3:06 AM RAZD has responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2967
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 188 of 222 (672039)
09-02-2012 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by RAZD
09-01-2012 10:19 PM


Re: avoidance again -- what is Guernica
RAZD writes:

Another interesting way to rationalize to yourself ....

... while still avoiding the question.

Hi RAZD

Another interesting way to rationalize to yourself.....

...while still avoiding the question of why we can't establish the existence of a single non-imaginary supernatural being.

RAZD writes:

Let me know when you want to participate -- and answer the question -- rather that obfuscate.

Let me know when you wish to participate in an on topic discussion -- rather than obfuscate.

You could start by explaining how my giving my views on a painting could change the existential state of supernatural beings.

How would that happen?

RAZD writes:

the question was first asked in Message 163 ... nothing but obfuscation since = not debate.

We agree that there's obfuscation going on, we just disagree as to its source.

BTW, thanks to the two people who have attempted to shed light on whatever there might be of substance to shed light on. I understand your confusion.

Would anyone else like to speculate on the peanut gallery on how my views on a painting could possibly provide evidence for the existence of non-imaginary SBs?

Edited by bluegenes, : peanut reference


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2012 10:19 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2012 9:16 PM bluegenes has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 189 of 222 (672068)
09-02-2012 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by bluegenes
09-02-2012 3:06 AM


why speculate when you can know?
Hi bluegenes

Would anyone else like to speculate on the peanut gallery on how my views on a painting could possibly provide evidence for the existence of non-imaginary SBs?

Alternatively you could post wht Guernica means to you, task me with tying it in to the topic (easily done) and move forward based on real answers rather than speculation.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by bluegenes, posted 09-02-2012 3:06 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by bluegenes, posted 09-02-2012 11:33 PM RAZD has responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2967
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 190 of 222 (672081)
09-02-2012 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by RAZD
09-02-2012 9:16 PM


Re: why speculate when you can know?
RAZD writes:

Alternatively you could post wht Guernica means to you, task me with tying it in to the topic (easily done) and move forward based on real answers rather than speculation.

It would be easy for you to do it by example. For example: "If bluegenes says "x", that's positive evidence for the fairies, but if bluegenes says why "y", that's positive evidence for the elves."

In reality, there's nothing I can say that will help you make a positive case for the existence of one of more non-imaginary SBs. And it's logically impossible that anything I can say will alter the existential state of SBs.

As you were making up beliefs for me in an earlier post, I don't see why you can't do it again.

So, fill in an "x" or "y" of your choice for bluegenes, and go onto step two.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2012 9:16 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by RAZD, posted 09-03-2012 7:02 AM bluegenes has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 191 of 222 (672090)
09-03-2012 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by bluegenes
09-02-2012 11:33 PM


Re: why speculate when you can know?
Hi bluegenes,

[qs]It would be easy for you to do it by example. ... [/q]

Curiously, that would be me speculating about what you would say, and I would prefer the answer come from you.

... For example: "If bluegenes says "x", that's positive evidence for the fairies, but if bluegenes says why "y", that's positive evidence for the elves."

But neither is the case, and that is because this is you speculating about what my argument involves rather than actually paying attention.

What are you scared of?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by bluegenes, posted 09-02-2012 11:33 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by bluegenes, posted 09-03-2012 11:54 AM RAZD has responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2967
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 192 of 222 (672116)
09-03-2012 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by RAZD
09-03-2012 7:02 AM


Re: why speculate when you can know?
RAZD writes:

Curiously, that would be me speculating about what you would say, and I would prefer the answer come from you.

Think about it. As there's nothing I could say that could possibly make any difference to either the existential state of SBs or the evidential state of SBs, you can easily fill in the gap and go on to step two. Then you can do the same there if necessary, and go on to any further steps required, so you can easily make your point in one post.

RAZD writes:

But neither is the case, and that is because this is you speculating about what my argument involves rather than actually paying attention.

You haven't presented an argument to pay attention to. I know that, because I've been paying attention to your argument free posts.

RAZD writes:

What are you scared of?

As you can clearly make up emotions for me, and you made up both an opinion and a psychological state for me in an earlier post, why can't you just continue in the same vein?

Meanwhile, I'm quite enjoying speculation. I'd like anyone reading the thread to be in a state of suspense. What will the unsupported claim actually be?

I like a big build build up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by RAZD, posted 09-03-2012 7:02 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by RAZD, posted 09-03-2012 12:25 PM bluegenes has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 193 of 222 (672118)
09-03-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by bluegenes
09-03-2012 11:54 AM


Re: why speculate when you can know?
Hi bluegenes,

Think about it. As there's nothing I could say that could possibly make any difference to either the existential state of SBs or the evidential state of SBs, you can easily fill in the gap and go on to step two. ...

Curiously I don't expect what you have to say about Guernica to have anything to do with SBs.

You haven't presented an argument to pay attention to.

Your failure in understanding my arguments from the first post on is why we are talking about Guernica.

That you have dismissed my posts because of your attitudes is part of the problem with this so far non-debate.

So can you respond to the question: what are your thought about Guernica, what does it mean to you?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by bluegenes, posted 09-03-2012 11:54 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by bluegenes, posted 09-03-2012 1:09 PM RAZD has responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2967
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 194 of 222 (672122)
09-03-2012 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by RAZD
09-03-2012 12:25 PM


Re: why speculate when you can know?
RAZD writes:

Curiously I don't expect what you have to say about Guernica to have anything to do with SBs.

So, you're asking me to do something off topic? Why?

RAZD writes:

Your failure in understanding my arguments from the first post on is why we are talking about Guernica

You mean from the beginning of the thread? No. The problem is rather that you don't appear to understand your arguments, or rather, how they relate to the topic. For example, I had to spend ages explaining to you why inductive scientific theories aren't deductive when you were criticizing the theory for not being deductive, a criticism that would have thrown out all scientific laws and theories. It's still not clear if you understand your mistake. Then, I had to point out that unsupported hypotheses can be made to contradict all theories, but without support they do not weaken them, but you kept on and on and on presenting such hypotheses, and it's still not clear whether or not you understand this point.

So, the problem is not that I don't understand your "arguments" and how they relate to the subject, it's that you don't appear to, otherwise you'd stop making them.

RAZD writes:

So can you respond to the question: what are your thought about Guernica, what does it mean to you?

Currently, and in the context that it's been presented, my first thought is that I wish naive supernaturalists would not use human art works in attempts to reinforce their beliefs and flatter their desires.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by RAZD, posted 09-03-2012 12:25 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by RAZD, posted 09-03-2012 4:58 PM bluegenes has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 195 of 222 (672129)
09-03-2012 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by bluegenes
09-03-2012 1:09 PM


closing in on 200 posts of bluegenes evasion ...
Hi bluegenes,

You still don't get it, or are willfully ignoring it.

So, you're asking me to do something off topic? Why?

I'm asking you to do something that I think is relevant to how you see my arguments.

Let me worry about the topic -- I started it ... along with this prediction:

Message 1

The challenge is accepted, let the equivocation and evasion begin.

Note also, from the OP -- just a reminder -- for the record, this is what the topic is about:

quote:
If anyone does not agree that this is a strong theory, ...

Calling it a "strong theory" doesn't make it so. What you have is wishful thinking and confirmation bias coupled to the logical fallacy of Affirming the Consequent.

... and support the theory with plenty of evidence.

Which you certainly need to do, having just just made a positive (and rather extraordinary) claim ...

Of course my participation will only involve showing the errors and poor logic in your argument/s, and I bear absolutely no burden to substantiate my personal position/s in this proposed debate: the sole focus would be on your attempt/s to show objective empirical evidence ...


It is not about me - nor about supernatural beings per se - it is about you substantiating your extraordinary claim, a thing which you have thus far substantially failed to demonstrate, with real objective empirical evidence.

Someone with a strong argument, backed up by "plenty of" actual objective empirical evidence, does not need to evade, dodge and play the shuck and jive game.

So ... stop equivocating on the topic ... stop evading my posts ... and answer the question: what does Guernica mean to you?

I'll show you how it relates to the topic.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : clrty


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by bluegenes, posted 09-03-2012 1:09 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by bluegenes, posted 09-03-2012 5:29 PM RAZD has responded

  
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