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Author | Topic: Has The Supernatural Hypothesis Failed? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Good. Then let's drop it.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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No. Let's point out that unless you can say what it is that these stories are actually evidence of - That you have no position at all.
Let's point out that citing stories as evidence of stories is a rather silly and pointless thing to say.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Okay.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Let's also point out that your haughty and superior demenour is wholly unjustified given your complete inability to demonstrate that your much cited "stories are evidence" is anything other than a giant tautology derived from circular thinking.
The next time you feel compelled to cite myths and stories as evidence I suggest you consider what exactly you are citing them as evidence of - Before doing so. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Okay.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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Bikerman writes: Scientifically valid evidence will normally be empirical (not always) and will conform to the scientific method - ie it will be testable and properly documented. Specifically the evidence will not be dependant on inference I don't think that criteria satisfies the theory of multiverses any more than it satisfies ,many aspects of the supernatural. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Bikerman Member (Idle past 4977 days) Posts: 276 From: Frodsham, Chester Joined: |
Ahh, still with us then?
Criteria don't satisfy theories, you have that reversed. I presume you mean that multiverse theories have no evidential support which would satisfy my definition of scientific evidence?If so then it depends which multiverse theory you mean. The Everett Many World theory - true. There is no testable data or prediction arising from MW that I can think of. In fact it is not so much a theory as an interpretation. What I mean by that is that Quantum physics has one particular part - the 'collapse of the wavefunction' which is just not ontologically understood at all - ie we can't say what it actually means, even though the theory works, makes testable predictions and is very accurate. There are a couple of alternatives in such a situation. You can do what the Copenhagen people did - say 'look, there is no deeper meaning, this is just what happens, so looking deeper for some explanation is futile, just accept the maths, accept it works, and stop trying to describe what it means'. Now I KNOW that you would not find that satisfactory, but believe it or not neither do many physicists. One possible alternative is that there is no wavefunction collapse (ie a transition from many possibilities to one certainty). Instead every possibility actually happens - but they all happen in different 'worlds' which are completely isolated from each other. Now, can you test this? Not currently using any method I can think of. Is it therefore a valid theory? No, it is simply one possible interpretation of the underlying theory which we know is sound. So, in simple terms, ignore Everett's interpretation if you like - it doesn't really matter - the physics will still give you the correct answer everytime. On the other hand, if you mean other multiverse theories then you will have to specify which one you mean and I will attempt to tell you whether it is testable or not. PS - did you watch the Feynman video series I dug out for you? I do hope so. I'd hate to feel I wasted my time searching them out for you. PPS - I should say, for the sake of completeness, that there IS a way of testing Everett's Many World Theory. (I call it a theory here because a test is proposed).The problem is that it is a bit extreme. The experimental protocol would be very similar to the Schroedinger's Cat thought experiment, as follows: 1. Rig-up a small photon detector capable of determining the spin of a photon. (Spin is a quantum number which is similar to but not the same as what you would normally understand the word to mean - rotating around an axis. All photons have spin value 1 but the direction can be one of two possibilities) 2. Attach an electrical activator to the output of the spin detector and to a lethal weapon. The weapon must be sure to kill a person quickly and reliably, so a bomb, though a bit messy, would do the trick. Alternatively a suitable firearm would also do if correctly aligned and loaded. 3. Set set the activator such that any photon spinning in one direction is ignored whilst a photon of opposite spin triggers the device. 4. The experimenter now takes up position such that the weapon is targetted correctly on him/her. 5. Start the detector. Now, if Many World is correct, the experimenter will be fine. The bomb will not explode or the gun will not fire as far as he/she is concerned - ever.Everyone else in world 1 would see a boom or a bang and a dead experimenter, but the interpretation means that the experimenter duplicates into a separate world everytime a photon is collected and so would notice no break or discontinuity, but would carry on existing in a manner which to them would seem quite normal, even though they were dying in one world and continuing in another. This is also, by the way, why your notion of 'gaps' between universes doesn't really make sense. The different worlds exist in what is called a superpositional state - in exactly the same way that particles exist in a superpositional state until the wavefunction collapses. In one sense they exist at every point and in another they exist at no point. There is no suitable analogy because there is no common experience. Anyway - that is the test - the quantum suicide test. Do you feel strongly enough to volunteer? After all, if you are right you have everything to gain and nothing to loose. If the theory is wrong and you die then it was surely a moral death - advancing knowledge at personal cost is certainly a moral act. So you get eternity in heaven - what could be nicer?Alternatively, if the theory is right and you survive then you have lost nothing. PPPS - If my suspicion that you are a dispensationalist is correct then this experiment is actually prophesied in scripture and you absolutely MUST take part to fullfil the prophecy.
Revelation 2:10-11 Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. It could NOT be clearer. You will be on the point of death at the start of the experiment. The Crown of life means Many Worlds is indeed correct and you will live, even though your first body dies. The second death is that death of the body in Word 2, and obviously you will not be hurt because consciousness continues into world 3.What more convincing could you need? Can I tell the Uni to start preparing? Edited by Bikerman, : To add a proposed experimental test of MW Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given. Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given. Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given. Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given.
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archaeologist Inactive Member |
The supernatural hypothesis has failed no it hasn't, it is just foolishness on the part of the unbeliever to expect to understand the Bible or expect God to answer their demands when they do not believe the Bible or Him. plus it is ridiculous to think that secular science is capable of determining anything about the supernatural when it is designed to only look at the natural things. it is also ludiicrious to think that secular scientists could actually construct viable tests that would examine the supernatural when the supernatural does not act according to secular science and its desires.
All those questions that have been able to be adequately explored have resulted in the overturning of the mystical, magical and supernatural explanation by means of examining and understanding the entirely natural. this has not been done since the natural is not the way origins came about. the natural explanation cannot be verified by actual observation of the actual events leading up to the oroigins of all things in this universe. if anything, secular science and scientists have only demonstrated their immaturity, foolishness by claiming such things while advocating the very they cannot meet with their experiments. case in point: http://news.yahoo.com/...811/sc_nm/us_argentina_lake_science
The bacteria's habitat is similar to primitive earth that is just one of the impossible things that secular scientists cannot verify, prove or observe thus it is insane to even promote such thinking. they have no clue what primitive earth looked like or what really inhabited it. so to make the foolish statements you have made only reflects badly upon all secular scientists and their anti-biblical work.
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee Member (Idle past 4963 days) Posts: 572 From: UK Joined: |
that is just one of the impossible things that secular scientists cannot verify, prove or observe thus it is insane to even promote such thinking. Why do you consider it "insane" to believe that we can tell a lot about the past from evidence we observe in the rocks and atmosphere today, yet you don't consider it insane to believe in something you claim happened in the past and for which there is no evidence whatsover?
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Bikerman Member (Idle past 4977 days) Posts: 276 From: Frodsham, Chester Joined: |
quote:You contradict yourself, and set up a straw-man in the same passage. Not a great start to a posting. How can an unbeliever expect God to answer their demands? They demand nothing of God because there is no God. The better question is why the believer expects God to do anything. Prayer has no effect - as has been demonstrated by a large scale study (the Templeton Foundation study a couple of years ago). quote:Unfortunately, like many, you haven't got much of a clue about science and what it does. You do not try to 'prove' things because that is not possible in any field, aside from maths. You look at disproving, or refuting instead. Until you understand at least the basic mechanisms of science then you won't really be able to make any intelligent (or even coherent) criticisms - as we see in this posting. Edited by Bikerman, : corrected quote tag Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So basically you are advocating a supernatural explanation for the origin of life (i.e. abiogenesis) and the origin of the universe. Right?
Can I ask on what basis you are suggesting that the supernatural is an appropriate explanation for these phenomenon? Can I also ask why you think a godly/supernatural explanation for these phenomenon is likely to fare any better than any of the other things that godly/supernatural explanations have been posited for in the past? (fertility, weather etc. etc. etc.) Do you think the god of the gaps argument is a sound argument?
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4210 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
no it hasn't, it is just foolishness on the part of the unbeliever to expect to understand the Bible or expect God to answer their demands when they do not believe the Bible or Him. Many, if not most, of us unbelievers were at one time believers until we saw the real truth, that the Bible, that you push so wholeheartedly,was written by frail and uniformed men, who tried to explain the phenomena of the earth & universe, but without what was needed to discover what was. That is what was later found or created, the equipment necessary to extract the information. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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Bikerman Member (Idle past 4977 days) Posts: 276 From: Frodsham, Chester Joined: |
I have to ask this...who is the WT Young in your sig? I know of a businessman in the US, but he died in 04, so cannot be the source of the 08 quote....I'm intrigued...
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4210 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
The quotes are mine.
There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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Bikerman Member (Idle past 4977 days) Posts: 276 From: Frodsham, Chester Joined: |
You aren't the son of the famous W.T? If so, lend us a tenner guv..just for a cup of coffee...
There are 10 types of people. Those who undestand binary, and those who don't. Chris
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