Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 90 (8876 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-16-2018 10:47 PM
194 online now:
dwise1, glowby, ICANT, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Percy (Admin) (5 members, 189 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Bill Holbert
Post Volume:
Total: 844,276 Year: 19,099/29,783 Month: 1,044/2,043 Week: 89/507 Day: 89/85 Hour: 2/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
345Next
Author Topic:   Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve: Part II
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 1622 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 16 of 75 (572789)
08-07-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 11:40 AM


Re: Doh....!!
ICDESIGN writes:

I want to see the proof that a different design would be superior. Its not enough to make the claim.

The simple rule of parsimony applied in an engineering context is all the proof you require.

1. There is added risk by elongating nerve fibres in terms of physical damage possibilities - the longer the nerve the more chance of physical damage - obvious common sense here.

2. There is more cell infrastructure (requiring energy and resources to build and maintain the structure) needed to produce longer axons and associated cell machinery for longer nerves - obvious common sense again.

3. Nerve impulses are transmitted by a polarisation wave that travels the length of the axon. This is limited by the speed in which the depolarisation wave can travel (driven by the sodium/potassium pump mechanism). This means that longer axons require longer impulse travel time and this slows target tissue response time. Ok we are talking about differences of fractions of a millisecond - but this is what engineering is all about.....picking the best over the second best option.

You don't design something that can do a job pretty well, if you can design one that is better.

There are at least 3 reasons above I've given you why a much shorter route is preferable for the RNL. It's down to you now to tell me why (no speculation please - the 3 reasons above are not speculation they are engineering known’s - each cannot be countered per se, so in order to have the long route for the RNL that we have - you need to demonstrate (not speculate) that there are better reasons for having a long route, that (and this is the important part) more than counteract the three disadvantages above (some of our more learned colleagues can probably find more disadvantages than the three I came up with).

Remember no "what-ifs", "maybe's" or other spurious speculation. You can say "what-if's" all day but if the evidence isn't out there - you're going nowhere on this one.

Face it - if God did design the natural world he's one of the lousiest engineers in the business...we routinely correct the biological disaster area we call 'human beings' - it's what we have hospitals, surgeon, doctors etc for. A whole industry built up on repairing and improving on the lousy design inherent in a jury-rigged system. A jury-rigged system makes complete sense if it has come from evolution - the evolution process always having to adapt what it has to work with - what has come before.

But a jury-rigged system is the sign of engineering incompetence from someone who has (presumably) had the power to design from 'first principles'.

If you really want to get started on a list of poor design criteria inherent in the biological world we could have some fun....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 11:40 AM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 5:11 PM Drosophilla has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2779 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 17 of 75 (572792)
08-07-2010 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Drosophilla
08-07-2010 4:26 PM


Re: Doh....!!
You don't design something that can do a job pretty well, if you can design one that is better.

OK, how does this sound to you? How bout a body that will never age? Never feel pain. Can pass through solid objects. Can disappear and in the snap of a finger reappear anywhere you desire on the planet?

This is what Jesus could do in his resurrected body and the bible tells us we will have the same type of body in the future.

You have lots of big words about design but they are worthless till you can produce a working model.

Please revisit post #14 and support your position with something concrete.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Drosophilla, posted 08-07-2010 4:26 PM Drosophilla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 5:19 PM ICdesign has responded
 Message 23 by Drosophilla, posted 08-07-2010 8:10 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 18 of 75 (572794)
08-07-2010 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 5:11 PM


Re: Doh....!!
ICDESIGN writes:

OK, how does this sound to you? How bout a body that will never age? Never feel pain. Can pass through solid objects. Can disappear and in the snap of a finger reappear anywhere you desire on the planet?

This is what Jesus could do in his resurrected body and the bible tells us we will have the same type of body in the future.

I'm sorry but not only is that simply false, it is nothing but a reference to some comic book.

Where exactly does the Bible tell us we will have those capabilities, or for that matter that Jesus had such capabilities?

ICDESIGN writes:

You have lots of big words about design but they are worthless till you can produce a working model.

Please revisit post #14 and support your position with something concrete.

Working models are all around you. One of the more horrific I remember was from my childhood when one of my friends was struck by polio and only survived because humans built a better model to take over breathing for his "Intelligently Designed" diaphragm.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 5:11 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 6:22 PM jar has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2779 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 19 of 75 (572801)
08-07-2010 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
08-07-2010 5:19 PM


be glad to show you
jar writes:

Where exactly does the Bible tell us we will have those capabilities, or for that matter that Jesus had such capabilities?

Read: Mark chapter:16; Luke chapter:24; 1Corinthians chapter:15
and Revelation chapter:21

...lets see. should I trust what you think or should I trust what the Holy Bible says? ..umm. Its a tough choice but I think I will go with the bible!

I made a reference to revisit post #14 last time but I meant #15.
Here it is one more time:

Your mission should be to show how the evolutionary model
is a better explanation for the design of the human body.

If all you can come to the table with is your sniveling about the RLN being 7inches too long... well it makes me feel like I came to the knife fight toting a 44 magnum.

Instead of whining about the RLN being 7 inches too long you need to be showing how it is possible that evolution once again managed to produce another body function with the "appearance" of purpose.
Where did the RLN originate from? How did it randomly end up connected to the larynx as well as the other organs it services. What is the probable path random mutation and natural selection took to end up with the end result we see in the current RLN system we now have?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 5:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 6:55 PM ICdesign has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16071
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 20 of 75 (572805)
08-07-2010 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 4:24 PM


Re: Doh....!!
I'm not even sure what you evolutionists are complaining about with the RLN. Is there anyone out there who is having a problem because of the design of their RLN?

Yes. It makes some poor unfortunate people pretend that an obvious botch job is the work of an omniscient God.

Your mission should be to show how the evolutionary model
is a better explanation for the design of the human body.

We've done that. The routing of the RLN makes perfect sense for fish, where it goes in direct route. Adaptations of vertebrate anatomy gave it a circuitous route in tetrapods.

If all you can come to the table with is your sniveling about the RLN being 7inches too long... well it makes me feel like I came to the knife fight toting a 44 magnum.

And a target painted on your foot.

Among many other sound design reasons (outlined in the link provided by Percy from which I used excerpts also), the reason due to developmental constraints is more than good enough to explain this intelligent design plan.

And as I pointed out, you then need a reason for the developmental constraints, which we have and you don't.

Instead of whining about being 7 inches too long you need to be showing how it is possible that evolution once again managed to produce another body function with the "appearance" of purpose.

Same way as usual.

Where did the RLN originate from? How did it randomly end up connected to the larynx as well as the other organs it services. What is the probable path random mutation and natural selection took to end up with the end result we see in the current RLN system we now have?

Maybe this will enlighten you.

Now, perhaps you could provide an explanation of how God made the RLN by magic.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 4:24 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 6:46 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2779 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 21 of 75 (572811)
08-07-2010 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Dr Adequate
08-07-2010 6:26 PM


Re: Doh....!!
Maybe this will enlighten you.

No that didn't help at all. This doesn't show where it originated from nor the step by step evolutionary process of how it developed and progressed into the human body.
You haven't showed how we randomly ended up with obvious purpose from a system that has no purpose.

Now, perhaps you could provide an explanation of how God made the RLN by magic.

yes I can. Read all about it in Genesis chapter:2

....got to run..thanks for all you nothing


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-07-2010 6:26 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by bluescat48, posted 08-07-2010 8:55 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-08-2010 12:17 AM ICdesign has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 22 of 75 (572813)
08-07-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 6:22 PM


Re: be glad to show you
ICDESIGN writes:

Read: Mark chapter:16; Luke chapter:24; 1Corinthians chapter:15
and Revelation chapter:21

As expected, you misrepresent what the Bible says. Not one of those supports your assertions, nor do they support the topic. If you would like to discuss them, particularly how the fable of the post resurrection story and Great Commission changed over time, please start a thread on it and I will be glad to discuss the subject.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 6:22 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 8:43 PM jar has responded

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 1622 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 23 of 75 (572824)
08-07-2010 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 5:11 PM


Re: Doh....!!
ICDESIGN writes:

OK, how does this sound to you? How bout a body that will never age? Never feel pain. Can pass through solid objects. Can disappear and in the snap of a finger reappear anywhere you desire on the planet?

This is what Jesus could do in his resurrected body and the bible tells us we will have the same type of body in the future.

You have lots of big words about design but they are worthless till you can produce a working model.

WTF ??!!

Are you here in this science thread just to toss around and act the general jerk?

Are you seriously offering the scientifically ignorant, superstitious mouthing’s of Bronze Age shepherds as an alternative to the real world of the 21st century?

As P T Barnum was rumoured to say, “There’s one born every minute!”

Christianity has had two thousand years to make progress...the ancient Greeks and Romans had more scientific, architectural and social development circa 500BC than 16th century middle-ages Christian Britain. In ancient Greek and Rome, mathematics flourished, sewers, running water, advanced agriculture and spas were already established and philosophy and fledgling science prospered. By contrast, once your brand of religion took hold in Europe, we got the 'dark ages'. Maths and science halted and reversed, people threw sewage into open streets, plague and other nasties abounded and people - especially scientists and other heretics were persecuted and killed. Starting with the Crusades and moving through to the Inquisition tens of thousands were killed - who knows what great minds were lost in those bleak times!

Who knows how many others lost their lives due to ignorance engendered by religious fanaticism which culled science and held back serious progress into the suppression of disease and the welfare of the people. Only since religion's deadlock has been broken - circa second part of the nineteenth century has real progress been made.

You live in a technological age where debilitating disease and illness have largely been eradicated thanks to the scientific method....not your stupid shepherd’s rambling nonsense.

If the best you can come up as a counter to the scientific explanations for evolutionary re-routing of the RNL is "My 2000 year 'God book' says we'll all live happily ever after in the fluffy white clouds" then you make our points for us.

You may have given up rational thinking but don't for one minute think the rest of us have....your question above said....

"Ok how does this sound to you.....?" Well to put it bluntly....no evidence whatsoever so absolutely no reason to even consider it....a non-starter really isn't it? Now apart from your Bronze Age meanderings - did you have anything else of worth to discuss - preferably something of actual value in a science thread......?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 5:11 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2779 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 24 of 75 (572826)
08-07-2010 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
08-07-2010 6:55 PM


Re: be glad to show you
you misrepresent what the Bible says. Not one of those supports your assertions

I don't misrepresent the bible and I challenge you to go to private messaging where I will be happy to quote the exact verses from the exact book references I sent that will prove you are the one misrepresenting the truth.

nor do they support the topic

This much I do agree upon which is why I now drop this conversation for this thread.

Why don't you try going on topic and give the detailed answer I have asked for several times going back to post #15

Edited by ICDESIGN, : No reason given.

Edited by ICDESIGN, : No reason given.

Edited by ICDESIGN, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 6:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 8:55 PM ICdesign has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 25 of 75 (572829)
08-07-2010 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 8:43 PM


Re: be glad to show you
The editing and revisions of the post resurrection and Great Commission story is an interesting tale, please start a topic on it.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 8:43 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 8:58 PM jar has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2171 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 26 of 75 (572831)
08-07-2010 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 6:46 PM


Re: Doh....!!
yes I can. Read all about it in Genesis chapter:2

Where in Genesis 2 does it mention anything about nerves?

The Bronze aged men who first told these myths knew nothing of nerves, the 9 century BCE editors who compiled these stories knew nothing about nerves.

Edited by bluescat48, : need I say it again, I am the woilds woist tyoppisset


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 6:46 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2779 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 27 of 75 (572833)
08-07-2010 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
08-07-2010 8:55 PM


Re: be glad to show you
please go back on topic and give a detailed answer I have asked for several times from post #15.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 8:55 PM jar has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 28 of 75 (572835)
08-07-2010 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 4:24 PM


Re: Doh....!!
ICDESIGN writes:

Your mission should be to show how the evolutionary model
is a better explanation for the design of the human body.

That one is easy.

When you look at the human body, or any other living people, what is found is not good design but rather something only good enough to get by. We find pieces parts that get reused even though they are not well designed, pieces parts cobbled together and often reused to serve some different function.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Edited by jar, : still can't spall


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 4:24 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16071
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 29 of 75 (572852)
08-08-2010 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 6:46 PM


Re: Doh....!!
No that didn't help at all. This doesn't show where it originated from nor the step by step evolutionary process of how it developed and progressed into the human body.
You haven't showed how we randomly ended up with obvious purpose from a system that has no purpose.

If you really don't know what the theory of evolution is, there are books about it.

yes I can. Read all about it in Genesis chapter:2

Nope, no details.

....got to run..thanks for all you nothing

Your command of syntax is equaled only by your grasp of biology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 6:46 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ICdesign, posted 08-08-2010 1:07 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2779 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 30 of 75 (572858)
08-08-2010 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dr Adequate
08-08-2010 12:17 AM


Re: Doh....!!
If you really don't know what the theory of evolution is, there are books about it.

I am well aware of the religion of evolution. The problem is I haven't seen any books that explain the details of where the RLN came from and the probable path of how it randomly and miraculously ended up providing such a clear and obvious purpose.

Obviously, none of you have a clue either according to your empty posts.

....got to run..thanks for all your nothing

...the thanks is the same with or without the r


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-08-2010 12:17 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Huntard, posted 08-08-2010 1:42 AM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-08-2010 4:49 AM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 37 by cavediver, posted 08-08-2010 5:31 AM ICdesign has responded
 Message 39 by Granny Magda, posted 08-08-2010 11:55 AM ICdesign has responded

    
Prev1
2
345Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018