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Author Topic:   Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve: Part II
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2724 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 46 of 75 (572927)
08-08-2010 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Admin
08-08-2010 12:24 PM


Re: Moderator Comment: You can't get blood from a stone.
Percy writes:

I do not detect any interest in actual discussion from those holding an opposing view, which leaves nothing worth responding to

There you have it folks. My questions regarding how mindless evolution is making decisions and providing purpose when it does not have that capability is not worth responding to.

but you can't get blood from a stone.

I do agree I will never get any blood out of this stone so I am
austa-la-bye-bye


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Admin, posted 08-08-2010 12:24 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 08-08-2010 5:51 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 48 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-08-2010 10:36 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 49 by Huntard, posted 08-09-2010 3:05 AM ICdesign has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 47 of 75 (572931)
08-08-2010 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 5:40 PM


Re: Moderator Comment: You can't get blood from a stone.
ICDESIGN writes:

My questions regarding how mindless evolution is making decisions and providing purpose when it does not have that capability is not worth responding to.

Another false statement from you.

You did get replies and they all said Evolution does not make decisions or provide purpose.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ICdesign, posted 08-08-2010 5:40 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16044
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 48 of 75 (572950)
08-08-2010 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 5:40 PM


Re: Moderator Comment: You can't get blood from a stone.
There you have it folks. My questions regarding how mindless evolution is making decisions and providing purpose when it does not have that capability is not worth responding to.

Perhaps you could set an example for us all by explaining in detail how, in your opinion, a dog cremated the universe in six ways.

You could start by telling us where it got an oven big enough.

Either that, or we could discuss our actual views.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ICdesign, posted 08-08-2010 5:40 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 222 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 49 of 75 (572959)
08-09-2010 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 5:40 PM


Re: Moderator Comment: You can't get blood from a stone.
ICDESIGN writes:

There you have it folks. My questions regarding how mindless evolution is making decisions and providing purpose when it does not have that capability is not worth responding to.


That's not what Percy said. He said it to you will likely do little good. I can only imagine this is becaue so far you've shown your understanding of evolution to be terribly lacking.

I do agree I will never get any blood out of this stone so I am
austa-la-bye-bye

Sure, whatever, bye.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ICdesign, posted 08-08-2010 5:40 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ICdesign, posted 08-09-2010 5:32 AM Huntard has responded

    
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2724 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 50 of 75 (572963)
08-09-2010 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Huntard
08-09-2010 3:05 AM


Re: Moderator Comment: You can't get blood from a stone.
He said it to you will likely do little good

Actually, I think he stepped in because my line of questioning was leading to your (Darwinists) house of cards being in jeopardy of crashing down.

[qs]you've shown your understanding of evolution to be terribly lacking[qs]

I think I have a fairly sound grasp on what the theory of evolution is claiming. I was simply asking where the RLN originated from and how it came to serve such obvious purpose. I was also asking how evolution could know the nerve was in jeopardy of breaking.

I think the responses show it is actually you yourselves that don't understand your own theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Huntard, posted 08-09-2010 3:05 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Huntard, posted 08-09-2010 5:50 AM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 53 by Theodoric, posted 08-09-2010 9:16 AM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-09-2010 2:03 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 57 by Granny Magda, posted 08-09-2010 3:47 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 222 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 51 of 75 (572964)
08-09-2010 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICdesign
08-09-2010 5:32 AM


Re: Moderator Comment: You can't get blood from a stone.
ICDESIGN writes:

Actually, I think he stepped in because my line of questioning was leading to your (Darwinists) house of cards being in jeopardy of crashing down.


Oh please, you didn't even ask the right questions, as Dr. Adequate amply demonstrated. If we asked you the question he asked you, would you also not think that explaining to us what you really think is futile? I eman, he gets every fundamental thing wrong, just like you did in your questions.

I think I have a fairly sound grasp on what the theory of evolution is claiming.

The things you post here make on esuspect otherwise.

I was simply asking where the RLN originated from and how it came to serve such obvious purpose.

That answer has been given, I suggest you read the posts again.

I was also asking how evolution could know the nerve was in jeopardy of breaking.

It doesn't "know"anything. The simlpe truth of the matter is, that if it breaks, and the organism dies, and if the braking was due to a mutation, then that mutation will not be passed along, meaning that the risk of"the nerve breaking is reduced.

I think the responses show it is actually you yourselves that don't understand your own theory.

Of course, the people here who actually study evolution and biology don't know what it says, while you, who haven't studied anything about it, know everything there is to know about it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICdesign, posted 08-09-2010 5:32 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2602 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 52 of 75 (572968)
08-09-2010 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 9:30 AM


Jerry Bergman writes:

The human body begins as a sphere called a blastocyst and gradually becomes more elongated as it develops. Some structures, such as the carotid duct, are simply obliterated during development, and some are eliminated and replaced. Other structures, including the recurrent laryngeal nerve, move downward as development proceeds. The movement occurs because the neck's formation and the body's elongation during fetal development force the heart to descend from the cervical (neck) location down into the thoracic (chest) cavity.


This portion is followed by details on the moving of the organs and the RLN growth to accommodate said movement.

Basically, the Greatest Designer (G_D)could not design the human (and all other tetrapod) gestation system such that the RLN would not have to take the round-a-bout route once the fetus was ready to be born.

I find this confusing in light of the fact that G_D is suppose to have all knowledge and unlimited resources.

I would think that a good designer would optimize the design for the form that the mechanism would be in for the longest amount of time vice the 9 months it would be in development.

Sorry. I read what Jerry had to say and it still doesn't look like a good design to me. But, hey, I'm only an engineer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 9:30 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 53 of 75 (572977)
08-09-2010 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICdesign
08-09-2010 5:32 AM


Re: Moderator Comment: You can't get blood from a stone.
Actually, I think he stepped in because my line of questioning was leading to your (Darwinists) house of cards being in jeopardy of crashing down.

Yeah that's right. You are going to completely destroy the Theory of Evolution here on EVC. Word came down from the high priest(or is it a priestess we have currently?) that you had to be muzzled before YOU destroyed all of the church of Evolution.

Do you truly believe pomposity and self-righteousness improve your lame arguments? You have no grasp of the TOE. This is shown by your posts and your questions. Learn a little about what you are debating against, then come back and ask a coherent, educated question.

ABE
If you caused the TOE 'house of cards" to come tumbling down, you would receive a Nobel prize and lots of fame. I don't think you need to worry about them giving you a call.
Oh that's right the evil, atheistic cabal of scientists would not let that happen even though you are correct.
Whatever. How about getting a clue.

Edited by Theodoric, : More cowbell!

Edited by Theodoric, : Spelling


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICdesign, posted 08-09-2010 5:32 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16044
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 54 of 75 (573021)
08-09-2010 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICdesign
08-09-2010 5:32 AM


Re: Moderator Comment: You can't get blood from a stone.
Actually, I think he stepped in because my line of questioning was leading to your (Darwinists) house of cards being in jeopardy of crashing down.

And so he recommended us to stop posting?

Well that makes sense in Opposite World.

I think I have a fairly sound grasp on what the theory of evolution is claiming.

And you are wrong, which is why you go around posting stuff like this.

I was also asking how evolution could know the nerve was in jeopardy of breaking.

This tells us that you don't have a clue what the theory of evolution is.

I think the responses show it is actually you yourselves that don't understand your own theory.

And this cozy little fantasy may help you sleep at night.

However,it also means that if by some whilom chance there was something wrong with the theory of evolution, you would never find it out. Because of not knowing what it is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICdesign, posted 08-09-2010 5:32 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12560
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 55 of 75 (573039)
08-09-2010 3:08 PM


Moderator Request
Right now in this thread the two sides are just lobbing little mini-grenades at each other. Could the participants please try to push their envelopes a little bit in seeking to bridge the disconnect between the two sides? The goal is to get a constructive dialog going.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7575
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 56 of 75 (573055)
08-09-2010 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ICdesign
08-07-2010 9:30 AM


The RLN design is due to developmental constraints.

Did Jerry Bergman ever discuss how an omnipotent and omniscient supernatural deity would be placed under developmental constraints? That's perhaps the strangest explanation I have ever seen.

"Well, God had to do it that way because God is constrained due to the fact that he designed fish a certain way."

I will also leave you with the question I had in the other thread. Is it good design to run 100 feet of electrical cord from your tv through your living room, around the lamp, up and over the couch, and under the coffee table just to plug into an outlet that is only 2 feet from the tv? Good design or bad design?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ICdesign, posted 08-07-2010 9:30 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 115 days)
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 57 of 75 (573065)
08-09-2010 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICdesign
08-09-2010 5:32 AM


Re: Moderator Comment: You can't get blood from a stone.
Hi ICD,

I think I have a fairly sound grasp on what the theory of evolution is claiming. I was simply asking where the RLN originated from and how it came to serve such obvious purpose.

Okay. The thing is that your question comes across as a little bit... odd... for a person who understands the ToE. It isn't the kind of question that anyone with a firm grasp of the theory would be likely to ask, save as a rhetorical question.

As for where the the RLN originated, I think I made a pretty good effort towards explaining that in Message 39. Do you have any points you want to bring up about that explanation?

I was also asking how evolution could know the nerve was in jeopardy of breaking.

And I answered you. Evolution doesn't "know" anything. The problem is not about knowing. The barrier to re-engineering the RLN is that evolution works without a goal and it does so by small stepwise changes - every one of which must be beneficial (or at least neutral) in the short term (evolution is unable to plan for the long term). Since the right-side RLN is effectively hooked behind the aortic arch, it can't progress back up around the other side of the arch without either severing the nerve or severing the arch - either one of which would prove lethal to the organism.

This doesn't mean that such a mutation couldn't arise; it could. The problem is that any individual that carried such a mutation which severed the RLN would not survive. Dead organisms don't get to add their mutations to the wider gene pool.

What evolution can do is to lengthen the nerve little by little. Each step would be small enough to achievable by mutation, safe enough to occur without harming the organism. It's not a perfect solution, but that's exactly what we would expect from an unguided evolutionary process; jury rigged, slightly shoddy solutions that are just good enough. That is exactly what we see in the RLN.

Mutate and Survive


"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICdesign, posted 08-09-2010 5:32 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2724 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 58 of 75 (573102)
08-09-2010 6:55 PM


OK, well thanks everyone for the feed back. My ICR post was really all I wanted to contribute to this thread.
I need to read up more on mutations. Honestly, it seems like Darwinists use a mutation like some magic wand to try and explain away all the problems with the theory.

I was trying to find out how the RLN originated. Not which organism had it first as much as how and why random mutations plus natural selection would have produced it. Evolution has no purpose so how and why did it migrate (according to you guys of course) to the organs it services and the larynx?

The gill evolving into a larynx?.... all you have is an inference and I just don't have that kind of faith.

I still think you are writing checks reality can't cash like giving evolution the power to make decisions then waving your mutation wand...but I would rather do some more learning about mutations
before saying more on that subject.

I don't really think your house of cards will crash on EvC but it is a fun thought

I won't post anymore on this thread but I hope to see some of you again when I submit a topic about "purpose"
Gods best plan to you,
IC


Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 08-09-2010 7:04 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 08-09-2010 8:27 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 61 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-09-2010 9:27 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 62 by Taq, posted 08-10-2010 12:34 PM ICdesign has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 59 of 75 (573103)
08-09-2010 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICdesign
08-09-2010 6:55 PM


ICDESIGN writes:

I still think you are writing checks reality can't cash like giving evolution the power to make decisions then waving your mutation wand...but I would rather do some more learning about mutations
before saying more on that subject.

Except everyone keeps telling you that Evolution does not make decisions or claim that Evolution has the power to make decisions.

The reason people pointed you towards the fish is that fish existed before anything with a larynx. The nerve system evolved before the larynx and when the larynx evolved it just reused pieces parts. It is a great example of why the evidence supports evolution instead of design.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICdesign, posted 08-09-2010 6:55 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 75 (573107)
08-09-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICdesign
08-09-2010 6:55 PM


I would rather do some more learning about mutations
before saying more on that subject.

Why don't you open a thread with your questions on the subject of mutations? I'd be happy to try to help you learn about them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICdesign, posted 08-09-2010 6:55 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
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