Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 113 (8749 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-26-2017 3:04 PM
116 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Roshankumar1234
Post Volume:
Total: 809,069 Year: 13,675/21,208 Month: 3,157/3,605 Week: 499/933 Day: 37/51 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
4Next
Author Topic:   The evolution of the Great Commission over time.
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 31 of 49 (662831)
05-19-2012 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
05-19-2012 11:14 AM


Re: Marketing A Franchise
There are many reasons to market a product other than just making money (although that certainly seems to be the motive behind much of Christianity today), and note what you just wrote:

Phat writes:

And why would people simply do what Jesus wanted them to do if there were no promises of any kind? It would be more profitable to go back to fishing.

Yes, most folk have a "What's in it for me" approach to Christianity, but what Jesus taught was quite different. Did he ask that question when he healed the sick, feed the hungry, comforted the sorrowful?

The changes in the Great Commission reflect just that issue; to sell "just do for others" was a tough sale.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 05-19-2012 11:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 11-22-2014 4:06 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 32 of 49 (742653)
11-22-2014 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
05-19-2012 11:52 AM


Re: Marketing A Franchise
jar writes:

The changes in the Great Commission reflect just that issue; to sell "just do for others" was a tough sale.

Im starting to come around to the idea of doing for others...with no promise of a reward...is a noble philosophy. (It would be nice to get paid, though. The rent must be paid. ) I'll get back to the other arguments and discussions in the other topics when I can. This holiday season is quite busy for me. Lots of folk buying lots of food. 40 hours at the grocery store. Which is a blessing! I wont gamble it away...im getting too old to waste money.

jar, in another thread writes:

The story evolves over time as I have pointed out many times here at EvC (see The evolution of the Great Commission over time.) as the Great Commission finally ending up with the totally different version found in John. With each iteration the story changes from a simple statement of an event to a commandment to go and do with no promise of any reward to one where folk are given the ability to perform miracles and to grant or deny salvation.

With each version the woo factor went up and the personal duty and responsibility factor went down.

I now agree with the personal duty and responsibility charge. It rings true with my soul. Im not sure, however, why the woo factor is totally illogical nor wrong. We can discuss it more if you would like.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 05-19-2012 11:52 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 33 of 49 (742714)
11-23-2014 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
09-08-2010 11:22 AM


Who We Are reflects What We Do
jar writes:

I don't see how "who you are" even has much meaning.

In my belief, who I am reflects how much I am allowing myself to decrease and Christ in me to increase. Some days I realize how selfish I really am. I repent, ask for wisdom, and resolve to try my best to be more generous...but in my belief I need Him in me to help. Perhaps on this point we could agree that the responsibility is mine--not His.

I believe that GOD is Spirit and I believe that Gods Spirit is in communion--intermingling with my human spirit. I could never test nor show how this is possible and would leave it for others to observe me to verify or refute my claim.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 09-08-2010 11:22 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2014 9:12 AM Phat has responded
 Message 35 by jar, posted 11-23-2014 9:24 AM Phat has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 34 of 49 (742716)
11-23-2014 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
11-23-2014 8:47 AM


Re: Who We Are reflects What We Do
Seems to me like you need to deal with your guilt issues more than anything else. Guilt is a worthless and crippling emotion if you let it persist.

Here is how to get rid of guilt. If it is a behavior that makes you feel guilty don't it. If you do the behavior, guilt won't change what happened so persistent guilt does nothing. Acknowledge what you feel guilty about and move on. Perseverating on it does nothing good.
http://psychcentral.com/...uilt-the-crippling-emotion/000722


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 11-23-2014 8:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 11-23-2014 2:31 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 35 of 49 (742717)
11-23-2014 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
11-23-2014 8:47 AM


Topic Phat
The thread is not about you but rather about how the story of the Great Commission evolved over time in the Bible stories.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 11-23-2014 8:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 11-23-2014 2:27 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 36 of 49 (742731)
11-23-2014 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
11-23-2014 9:24 AM


Re: Topic Phat
OK, back to the topic. One thing that gets me about what the commission is is between two extremes. Some say that Christianity is all about what we do for others. Others say that Christianity is not about what we do entirely...it is about who He is and what He did for all of us. While I will agree that merely sharing the idea that He died for all of our sins past,present and future is not the entire message, I also dont agree that God is unknowable and that our focus should be entirely on simply doing for others with no promise of any hope nor reward nor even any certainty of an afterlife.

I will agree that we should focus on doing for others all of the time and that we should not merely do things in expectation of favor or reward...either from God or humanity. One scripture grabbed my curiosity, however. Paul...in Romans:

Rom 10:1-4 writes:


10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Is trying to do our best daily with no expectation of reward establishing our own righteousness?

Rom 9:16-17 writes:

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

OK...so our charge is to try and do our best on a daily basis and repent for anything our conscience tells us is wrong.

Rom 9:30-32 writes:


That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

So to tell people that Christianity is not about who He is so much as about what we do would to me seem contradictory to what Paul was teaching. Comments?


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 11-23-2014 9:24 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 11-23-2014 2:51 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 37 of 49 (742732)
11-23-2014 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Theodoric
11-23-2014 9:12 AM


Re: Who We Are reflects What We Do
Theodoric writes:

Seems to me like you need to deal with your guilt issues more than anything else.

Each day I am aware of how I have fallen short of what I know I should have or could have done. I realize, however, that I am human and can always improve. To me, its not so much guilt as it is conviction.
Theodoric writes:

Acknowledge what you feel guilty about and move on.

I do. I dont have a negative self image nor a belief in impending doom in the world. I try to look at life and people optimistically.

I believe that I can do it with Gods help.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2014 9:12 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 38 of 49 (742733)
11-23-2014 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
11-23-2014 2:27 PM


Re: Topic Phat
What does any of that have to do with the evolution of the Great Commission over time in the Bible or is that back to "what about Phat?"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 11-23-2014 2:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 11-23-2014 3:51 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:09 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 39 of 49 (742735)
11-23-2014 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
11-23-2014 2:51 PM


Re: Topic Phat
jar writes:

What does any of that have to do with the evolution of the Great Commission over time in the Bible or is that back to "what about Phat?"

If you want to limit the topic to what is said in the Bible, I'll step out. The fact is, the Great Commission is only possible with commissioners. jar is a commissioner as is Phat as is Tim, Buck, or Too. The Bible is only useful to humanity if it can be applied today...not just as some study of what folk did way back then.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 11-23-2014 2:51 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 40 of 49 (747597)
01-17-2015 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
08-08-2010 6:40 PM


Franchising Rights
jar writes:

As I pointed out, in Matthew the Great Commission offers no perks, no benefits to the Apostles. Gradually over time the authors, editors and redactors expanded on the myth.

Are you suggesting that Matthew had the original intent correct while Luke and John expanded the teaching into myth? Or are you suggesting that all of it is myth?

It seems to me that you really prefer the charge to try and do your best--regardless of any promise. Perhaps your Mother had an influence in this regard. The Book of Acts explains the expansion of the "franchise". I know that you suspect that all later attempts were insincere.

I believe that God revealed more to latter believers (after His Son died and was resurrected) than He did to former believers who were of course unfranchised Jews.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 08-08-2010 6:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 01-17-2015 9:11 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 41 of 49 (747599)
01-17-2015 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
11-23-2014 2:51 PM


Re: Topic Phat
The issue is interpretation of the Great Commission. Paul states plainly that simply doing for others is a form of establishing ones own righteousness. He is challenging the original religion. You seem to prefer to keep it.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 11-23-2014 2:51 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 42 of 49 (747607)
01-17-2015 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
01-17-2015 8:05 AM


Re: Franchising Rights
Phat writes:

The issue is interpretation of the Great Commission. Paul states plainly that simply doing for others is a form of establishing ones own righteousness. He is challenging the original religion. You seem to prefer to keep it.

UH...chapter and verse Phat, chapter and verse.

And that is not the issue at all. The issue in this topic is that the Great Commission evolve over time and the changes simply added perks for following it.

Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that Matthew had the original intent correct while Luke and John expanded the teaching into myth? Or are you suggesting that all of it is myth?

No, I am not talking about whether anything is myth, I am talking about conscious marketing advertising; about selling the sizzle not the steak.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:05 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 10:25 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 43 of 49 (747610)
01-17-2015 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
01-17-2015 9:11 AM


Who Is The Boss?
jar writes:

chapter and verse Phat, chapter and verse.

I covered this in Message 36 but I can do so again.
Rom 10:1-4 writes:


10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

jar writes:

The issue in this topic is that the Great Commission evolved over time and the changes simply added perks for following it.

What makes you convinced that the original had more truth than the latter additions/modifications? Is it because you want to believe it?

I realize that you rant against the diminishment of personal and social responsibility. I get that.

jar writes:

I am talking about conscious marketing advertising; about selling the sizzle not the steak.

I would argue that Paul was correct. The original religion was more about personal responsibility and an unknown God. You argue that the evidence still shows this to be true. Paul may say that you are establishing your own righteousness based upon logic, reason, and (your perception of) reality. I defend the sizzle. (as you call it) I say that it is important that Christ lives today. I say that this belief does not diminish personal and social responsibility, however. It merely places God in charge over us rather than our own human vanity and hollow wisdom.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 01-17-2015 9:11 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Jon, posted 01-17-2015 10:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 45 by jar, posted 01-17-2015 10:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 49 (747613)
01-17-2015 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
01-17-2015 10:25 AM


Re: Who Is The Boss?
Rom 10:1-4 writes:


10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

What does that have to do with doing for others?

It merely places God in charge over us rather than our own human vanity and hollow wisdom.

Putting someone else in charge is the definition of changing out responsibility.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 10:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 45 of 49 (747614)
01-17-2015 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
01-17-2015 10:25 AM


Re: Who Is The Boss?
You need to stop quote mining Phat; stop listening to anyone that feeds you a "proof text". Read ALL of Romans Phat and don't just pull out what you think supports your position but ignore the rest.

Does Paul go one to talk about those who came before Jesus?

Does Paul go on to talk about those who have never even heard of Jesus?

And what the hell does any of that have to do with the topic which is how the Great Commission evolved over time?

Phat writes:

What makes you convinced that the original had more truth than the latter additions/modifications? Is it because you want to believe it?

LOL Strawman Phat?

No where do I say that any of them have any truth. What I says and have said and it seems true based on what YOU have said is that marketing the original version was a very hard sell and so benefits and woo (sell the sizzle) were added to make it easier to sell.

How many times have you told me "Why worship a God that does nothing for me?"


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 10:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Prev12
3
4Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017