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Author Topic:   14C Calibration and Correlations
CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 968 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 47 of 59 (690467)
02-13-2013 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Panda
02-13-2013 11:38 AM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
Which explanation would work for this problem?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Panda, posted 02-13-2013 11:38 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Panda, posted 02-13-2013 12:26 PM CoolBeans has acknowledged this reply

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1066 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 48 of 59 (690470)
02-13-2013 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 12:07 PM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
Yes.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by CoolBeans, posted 02-13-2013 12:07 PM CoolBeans has acknowledged this reply

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 177 days)
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 49 of 59 (690471)
02-13-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 11:55 AM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
CoolBeans writes:

Well they are yecs.....

I am aware of that from the fact that they are ignoring portions of the research that was done on these fossils and incorrectly using carbon dating. What I was trying to point out is that there is already responses to these "issues" within the scientific literature. And the fact that they are YECs does not change the fact that they are incorrect in their statements.

Question for you would be, why should we trust a group that is proving that they do not know how to utilize carbon dating? This seems like a tell tale sign that they are only looking for the answers that they want..

As Richard Dawkins said in the Something from Nothing Lecture at ASU, "It doesn't matter what helps you get to sleep at night, what matters is what is true."


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by CoolBeans, posted 02-13-2013 11:55 AM CoolBeans has responded

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Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 50 of 59 (690474)
02-13-2013 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 10:18 AM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
The discovery of collagen in a Tyrannosaurus-Rex dinosaur femur bone was recently reported in the journal SCIENCE. This is an outstanding find because collagen being a soft tissue present in most animals is supposed to decay in a few thousand years. Collagen is the main protein found in connective tissue of animals.

Finding tiny chunks of collagen proteins (just a few amino acids long if memory serves) is not the same as finding intact tissue. They may have very well found small peptides that bound to the apatite matrix of the bone and were therefore preserved. Same for heme proteins. This, in now way, puts the age of the fossil in doubt. The fossil is 65 million years old as determined by the radiometric dating of the rocks above and below the fossil itself. What these fossils are showing is that small amounts of biological material could be preserved over millions of years.

Recently Triceratops and Hadrosaur femur bones in excellent condition were discovered in Glendive Montana and our group received permission to saw them in half and collect samples for Carbon 14 testing. Both bones were tested by a licensed lab for presence of collagen. Both bones did in fact contain some collagen! The best process ( Accelerator Mass Spectrometry ) was used. Total organic carbon and dinosaur bio-apatite was then extracted and pretreated to remove potential contaminants and concordant radiocarbon dates were obtained, all of which were similar to radiocarbon dates for ice age megafauna such as Siberian mammoths, saber tooth tigers of the Los Angeles LaBrea Tarpits, sloth dung and giant bison.

Can you dig up the original references for these claims?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by CoolBeans, posted 02-13-2013 10:18 AM CoolBeans has not yet responded

  
CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 968 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 51 of 59 (690476)
02-13-2013 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
02-13-2013 12:32 PM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
I agree they are not very trust worthy, Im not on their side. Im just looking for a rebutal. Thats it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-13-2013 12:32 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Taq, posted 02-13-2013 12:57 PM CoolBeans has acknowledged this reply
 Message 54 by dwise1, posted 02-13-2013 2:59 PM CoolBeans has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 52 of 59 (690477)
02-13-2013 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 12:52 PM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
I agree they are not very trust worthy, Im not on their side. Im just looking for a rebutal. Thats it.

We need the original references for a rebuttal. All we have is the claims being made as to what those references actually say. Given the track record of creationists, I don't think we should accept these claims at face value.

For example, Kent Hovind used to claim that pieces of the same mammoth had very discordant dates:

"One part of the Vollosovitch mammoth carbon dated at 29,500 years old. Another part of the same mammoth carbon dated at 44,000 years old."--Kent Hovind

When people actually checked his references they found that the dates were from different mammoths, not the same one.

http://www.angelfire.com/alt2/digicam/mammoth.html

That is the type of misrepresentation that we are used to, so I think it is prudent to work from the original sources instead of what the creationists claim the sources say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by CoolBeans, posted 02-13-2013 12:52 PM CoolBeans has acknowledged this reply

  
CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 968 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 53 of 59 (690485)
02-13-2013 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by dwise1
02-13-2013 10:33 AM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
Thanks
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2687
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 54 of 59 (690487)
02-13-2013 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 12:52 PM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
Please check Message 5 of the topic you had started and which has been promoted. I think this discussion should go there.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by CoolBeans, posted 02-13-2013 12:52 PM CoolBeans has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by CoolBeans, posted 02-13-2013 3:14 PM dwise1 has responded

    
CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 968 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 55 of 59 (690488)
02-13-2013 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by dwise1
02-13-2013 2:59 PM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
Carbon 14 dating of bone is one of the most difficult tasks for carbon dating and requires the most care of any carbonaceous material. This is mainly due to the nature of bone which is a very porous material. Certain parts of bone look like a sponge under microscopic examination. Many dinosaur bones are hard as rock because the original material has been replaced with silicon materials such as quartz. We have found un-mineralized dinosaur bones. We can then scrape the outer surface off to get rid of surface contamination and date the inner remaining material. Depending on other factors one can choose to date just the purified bioapatite, total organics or collagen. One can also date all three components as was done by us (see chart below).

The discovery of collagen in a Tyrannosaurus-Rex dinosaur femur bone was recently reported in the journal SCIENCE. This is an outstanding find because collagen being a soft tissue present in most animals is supposed to decay in a few thousand years. Collagen is the main protein found in connective tissue of animals. It can make up as much as 1 to 6 percent of muscle mass. Recently Triceratops and Hadrosaur femur bones in excellent condition were discovered in Glendive Montana and our group received permission to saw them in half and collect samples for Carbon 14 testing. Both bones were tested by a licensed lab for presence of collagen. Both bones did in fact contain some collagen! The best process ( Accelerator Mass Spectrometry ) was used. Total organic carbon and dinosaur bio-apatite was then extracted and pretreated to remove potential contaminants and concordant radiocarbon dates were obtained, all of which were similar to radiocarbon dates for ice age megafauna such as Siberian mammoths, saber tooth tigers of the Los Angeles LaBrea Tarpits, sloth dung and giant bison. We generally go with AMS dating because of its inherent superior accuracy but use the conventional method when large samples are available to completely rule out contamination. This is recommended by the professional carbon dating laboratory specialists.

The following should be noted. Our group has radiocarbon dated mammoth and mastodon bones in the range of 23,560 to 36,000 years BP, and none of them contained any collagen. Yet some dinosaur bones contain collagen. We believe the absence of collagen depends on burial environment. Bones buried in sand with water generally have only bio-apatite remaining which is still datable. Dry or cold environments and or regions of individual bones free of cracks and bones buried in clay stand a better chance of containing collagen.

Dr. Libby the discoverer of Radiocarbon dating and Nobel Prize winner showed that purified collagen could not give erroneous ages. Dr Stafford's research demonstrated in 1990 that conventional methods of purifying collagen were within 5% of the most excruciatingly exact extraction techniques. It is not possible to claim that the laboratories made mistakes in their analysis and that there really was no collagen. General scientific thought says dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. We have evidence to the contrary from several sources. Radiocarbon dating of dinosaur bones, accounts from ancient histories, depictions on rocks, mozaics, and temple walls; and human footprints with dinosaurs strongly show that dinosaurs were around in historical times. More on these subjects are included in our other web pages. Dinosaur bones from Texas to Alaska have been tested by our group for the presence of Carbon 14 and the following table shows some of the results of our findings over the years.


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Replies to this message:
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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 968 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 56 of 59 (690489)
02-13-2013 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 3:14 PM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
Acro (Acrocanthosaurus) is a carnivorous dinosaur excavated in 1984 near Glen Rose TX by C. Baugh and G. Detwiler; in 108 MA Cretaceous sandstone – identified by Dr. W. Langston of Un. of TX at Austin.
Allosaurus is a carnivorous dinosaur excavated in 1989 by J. Hall, A Murray team and under a Brontosaurus skeleton in the Wildwood section on a ranch west of Grand Junction CO in 150 Ma Late Jurassic sandstone of the Morrison formation - identified by using Allosaurus bone handbook submitted by local museum curator.
Hadrosaur #1, a duck billed dinosaur bone fragments excavated in 1994 along Colville River by G. Detwiler, J. Whitmore team in the famous Liscomb, bone bed of Alaskan North Slope – validated by Dr. J. Whitmore.
Hadrosaur #2, a duck billed dinosaur lone femur bone excavated in 2004 in clay in the NW ¼, NE ¼ of Sec. 32, T16N, R56 E, Dawson County, Montana by O. Kline team of the Glendive Dinosaur and Fossil Museum – identified by paleontology descriptions and sawed open by O. Kline, H. Miller team in 2005 to retrieve samples for testing for C-14 content.
Triceratops #1, a ceratopsid dinosaur lone femur bone excavated in 2004 in Cretaceous clay at 47º 6’ 18” by 104º 39’ 22” Montana by O. Kline team of the Glendive MT Dinosaur & Fossil Museum – identified by paleontology descriptions and sawed open by O. Kline, H. Miller team in 2005 to retrieve samples for testing for C-14 content.
Triceratops #2, a very large ceratopsid-type dinosaur excavated in 2007 in Cretaceous clay at is 47' 02" 44N and 104' 32" 49W by O. Kline team of Glendive Dinosaur & Fossil Museum – identified by paleontology descriptions but may be a new species; outer bone fragments of femur tested for C-14.
Hadrosaur #3, scrapings from a duck billed dinosaur large bone, excavated by Joe Taylor of Mt Blanco Fossil Museum, Crosbyton TX in Colorado in Cretaceous strata – identified by Joe Taylor. Apatosaur, scrapings from a rib still imbedded in the clay soil of a ranch in CO, partially excavated in 2007 and 2009 in 150 Ma late Jurassic strata by C. Baugh and B. Dunkel - identified by C. Baugh.

(b)

Lab ID: All specimens from USA unless otherwise noted.
GX is Geochron Labs Cambrdge MA, USA; AA is University of Arizona Tuscon AZ, USA; UG is University of Georgia, Athens GA, USA; KIA is Christian Albrechts Universität, Kiel Germany; AMS is Accelerated Mass Spectrometer; Beta is the conventional method of counting Beta decay particles; Bio is carbonate fraction of bioapatite. Bow is bulk organic fraction of whole bone; Col is collagen fraction; w or ext is charred, exterior or whole bone fragments; Hum is humic acids.
(c)

Weight of samples: Sample size sent to RC lab, ˜ 170 g as required by Geochron in 1990 for GX-15155, conventional beta
Sample size sent to RC lab, excess CO2 from GX-15155 encapsulated in glass and sent to NZ lab, AMS
Sample size sent to RC lab, ˜ 50 mg as scrapings from different Acro bone for AA-5786, AMS
Sample size sent to RC lab, 6.4 g from femur for UGAMS-7509a & b, AMS
Sample size sent to RC lab, ˜ 30 g for UGAMS-02947, AMS
Sample size sent to RC lab, ˜ 5 g for KIA-5523, AMS
Sample size sent to RC lab, 8.4 g for GX-32372-Internal bone material, AMS
Sample size sent to RC lab, 146 g for GX-32647-Outer bone material, conventional beta
Sample size sent to RC lab, 2.3 g for GX-31950-Internal bone material, AMS
Sample size sent to RC lab, 160 g for GX-32678-AMS & GX-32739-Outer bone, Conventional beta

(d)

Contam is Contaminant in collagen fraction; it could be humic acids or an unknown but it was removed by acid - base - acid pretreatment and was only 1.3% of collagen sample in UGAMS-01918. In GX-31950 the contaminant overwhelmed the collagen as the sample was too small which is a good reason for extracting and dating other fractions and submitting large samples. This femur bone was found along a dry wash.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by CoolBeans, posted 02-13-2013 3:14 PM CoolBeans has responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2687
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 57 of 59 (690490)
02-13-2013 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 3:14 PM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
Why are you posting that here and not in the topic that you had proposed?

And who wrote that? Did you? Because that's what you are telling us! Are you quoting somebody else? Then tell us that! You do so by actually quoting the text using the method that I explained to you in your own topic where this should have been posted.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by CoolBeans, posted 02-13-2013 3:14 PM CoolBeans has not yet responded

    
CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 968 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 58 of 59 (690491)
02-13-2013 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 3:15 PM


Re: Bump for CoolBeans
I cant post the chart because is not an image
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by CoolBeans, posted 02-13-2013 3:15 PM CoolBeans has not yet responded

    
samreddevilz 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1281 days)
Posts: 7
Joined: 06-10-2013


Message 59 of 59 (701458)
06-19-2013 2:52 PM


Very Informative One! Really Worth of Great Admiration.
    
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