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Author Topic:   Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC?
frako
Member
Posts: 2438
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 376 of 406 (580203)
09-08-2010 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by riVeRraT
09-08-2010 7:07 AM


Re: Listen
Not that you care? You are the one telling us what you think the bible means quote mining the entire bible, and taking things out of context.

so if an atiest dose it its wrong and if theist do it trough 2000 years of christianety its not wrong

Completion of the law was to change it. And things did change.

yes things did change before if someones theist son told him he wants to worship jupiter he was stoned to deth, and after christ if a nation was worsheping other gods it got pillaged raped and burned, and if someone did not fill in to the social norm he got
burned to deth clearly a good change

Yes you are right, anyone can use anything for justification for doing the WRONG thing. That doesn't make the bible bad, or any book bad, that makes people bad.

so what is the wrong think i thaught the book is suposed to tell us that. usualy its the society that dictates if somthing is wrong or right. exsample slavery now is clearly wrong during the whole history of humanety it was not wrong and the bible supports slavery it evan tells you how to treat your slaves.

What pisses me off is when people such as yourself, who come across as being smart, confuse those thoughts.

yes it is confusing if you base your morals on a book about morals that has some wrong morals in it.

I don't blame the Koran, like those idiots in Florida, I blame people.

the ones that are reading the book wrong right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2010 7:07 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2010 7:45 PM frako has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 13109
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 377 of 406 (580273)
09-08-2010 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by riVeRraT
09-08-2010 7:07 AM


Re: Listen
Oh, and Rrhain, I don't know where you got the idea that Fox was funding the Mosque, I have not found anything online that says that.

Learn about their second largest shareholder.

All I found was that the funding was sketchy, and they were even offered money from known terrorist leaders(or supporters of terrorism).

So, is there any evidence for this, or is this just more stuff that people have made up?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2010 7:07 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2010 7:59 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 2 days)
Posts: 3355
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 378 of 406 (580286)
09-08-2010 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by riVeRraT
09-08-2010 7:07 AM


Muslim Ownership of Fox
Fox News reported on the troublesome nature of one person funding the Cordoba center, suggesting that the man had ties to terrorism.

Fox News was either evil or stupid (or both) for not mentioning that Alwaleed bin Talal, the Saudi in question, is News Corp.'s largest shareholder aside from Murdoch.

You can watch Jon Stewart air the Fox footage and take them to task here.

Fox News wanted to frighten you with a shadowy, nameless Muslim; they didn't want to name him--because then you could find out he owns their cynical butts.


Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

Real things always push back.
-William James


This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2010 7:07 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2438
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 379 of 406 (580298)
09-08-2010 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Omnivorous
09-08-2010 1:32 PM


Re: Muslim Ownership of Fox
so the best wy for americans to be patriotic is that as a nation they don't watch fox news anymore

i laughed my ass of when i saw a youtube video that brought this all together. fox news says "terrorist" funds mosque --> the same "terrorist" owns a big part of fox news --> no mosque and no fox news the safe way to go


This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Omnivorous, posted 09-08-2010 1:32 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 25132
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 380 of 406 (580300)
09-08-2010 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by riVeRraT
09-08-2010 7:07 AM


Re: Listen
Also, what the real story is is that the person among many others contributed to a charity that was later identified as being connected with Hamas (IIRC).

As usual, Faux News is just making shit up.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2010 7:07 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

onifre
Member
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 381 of 406 (580323)
09-08-2010 5:20 PM


Summation
As Moose requested, I'll give my final thoughts.

They pretty much haven't changed from the OP. I believe muslims are well within their right to build a mosque where ever they see fit to. Religious freedom protected by the Constitution gives them this right. I don't consider "Ground Zero" to be any kind of sacred ground - (actually, I really don't consider ANY piece of property on Earth sacred) - and doing so puts more people at risk then just ignoring the mosque and getting on with our lives.

The current state of Jerusalem is a perfect example of a piece of real estate being taken too seriously -- when supposed "holy grounds" have to be protected by men and women with machine guns. I don't think any sensible person in the US would like to see that for Ground Zero or the Freedom Tower.

As for those Christians who claim that Ground Zero is off limits to "others," I'll leave this quote:
source

quote:
After all, there is scarcely a square foot of land upon which we tread that is not, for someone, Ground Zero. I am sitting atop one now: a killing field for Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw and Creek; a graveyard in which are buried the bones -- and if no longer the bones, then surely the dust -- of peoples whose evisceration occurred not so long ago, and is still remembered by those who have not the luxury of forgetting.

And so the New Yorkers who believe against all evidence that their trauma is unique in the history of the world -- or even their city for that matter -- prattle on about the "defiling" of the former World Trade Center location. Meanwhile they overlook that their precious island was itself cajoled from indigenous peoples for a handful of worthless beads. And white men have been swindling those we viewed as inferior -- be they of color, or even other white men -- ever since, especially (and this is where the geographic symbolism of their protests becomes revealing) in and around Wall Street, where the actions of wealthy investors and financiers have done far more damage than Osama Bin Laden ever could. Would that we might prohibit the construction of banks anywhere in New York so as to make a point about terrorism and our unwillingness to collaborate with it.

Indeed, if those protesting the Cordoba House were the least bit interested in consistency -- as opposed to being content to wallow in a type of hypocrisy both profound and typical -- they would, to a person, vacate downtown Manhattan immediately. And this they would do out of respect for the lives destroyed by people such as they: black peoples forced to build Fort Amsterdam for the Dutch, which is where Battery Park is now, or the walls that gave the famous street its name, or the roads, or the very auction blocks upon which their compatriots would be sold, thereby allowing 40 percent of white New York households to possess other human beings as property by the mid-1700s.

And they would vacate midtown too, especially any with Irish ancestry, since it was their ancestral fathers who - and so as to show how badly they desired to become white - burned down a black orphanage on 5th Avenue between 43rd and 44th during the 1863 Draft Riots. But I'm guessing there is an Irish Pub within walking distance of the former orphanage, and yet no one seems particularly concerned about the slight.


Someone in this thread said building this mosque would be like building a statue of Hitler at Auschwitz, but why go so far? Why not it being like building a stadium on land that once belonged to Indians with the name "Redskins" on it? Because, that would mean recognizing our lack of sensitivity for those this nation has hurt, slaughtered and eradicated.

As always, Americans are quick to point and criticize others for their behavior, ignoring, as always, those of this country.

9/11 was a tragedy, this goes without saying. But what this country has done to other nations, especially those in the middle east, especially in support of the tyranical government of Israel, especially when they've supported the uprising of many dictators, must be recognized and taken into account anytime anyone here decides to point the finger at a group of people all call them terrorist.

- Oni


Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3584
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 382 of 406 (580343)
09-08-2010 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Adminnemooseus
09-07-2010 3:45 PM


Re: Call for summary messages tied directly to the topic core theme
Bump.

So, I'm calling for closing summary messages - Only one per member.

I guess I'll leave this topic open at least until I'm about to part with my internet user location later tonight.

Please, confine your messages to being your final statement.

Adminnemooseus


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 5606
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 383 of 406 (580351)
09-08-2010 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by frako
09-08-2010 7:33 AM


Re: Listen
Frako, you are completely off topic, all those answer lie within this forum, feel free to search.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by frako, posted 09-08-2010 7:33 AM frako has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 5606
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 384 of 406 (580354)
09-08-2010 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Dr Adequate
09-08-2010 12:20 PM


Re: Listen
Thanks for the link Dr.Adequate.
Mosque-a-teers, lol.

Wasn't it the daily show that said: the fact that Muslims can build a Mosque next to ground zero here in the US speaks a lot about the US, and the fact that they would build one speaks a lot about Muslims?

So, is there any evidence for this, or is this just more stuff that people have made up?

Different news articles (not blogs) I found while googling, who the hell knows if they are true or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-08-2010 12:20 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 5606
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 385 of 406 (580355)
09-08-2010 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Omnivorous
09-08-2010 1:32 PM


Re: Muslim Ownership of Fox
"Omnivorous" writes:

Fox News reported on the troublesome nature of one person funding the Cordoba center, suggesting that the man had ties to terrorism.

Fox News was either evil or stupid (or both) for not mentioning that Alwaleed bin Talal, the Saudi in question, is News Corp.'s largest shareholder aside from Murdoch.

So Fox news is not directly funding the Mosque, just one of it's major (7%) contributors?

*EDIT* just saw the final request for one statement. I was just answering people. I still stick by everything I said so far. The Muslims can build a Mosque wherever they want, freedom of religion>terroism/whatever. Even if the founders were guilty of terrorist associations, they could still build it there. I don't care, and NYC is my home.

Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Omnivorous, posted 09-08-2010 1:32 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

Nij
Member (Idle past 1415 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 386 of 406 (580364)
09-08-2010 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Adminnemooseus
09-08-2010 6:38 PM


Final opinion
Those involved in the Cordoba Initiative -- the group building Park51, for anyone who missed the fifty mentions they got or the discussion about them -- have the right to build the community centre.
There is no reasonable legal or moral objection to their doing so. Its aims are all above board; the source of its funding has been questioned by many and shown to be either above board or at least tolerable to an rational observer; all possible excuses for not building the site have been exmained, found wanting and discarded as legitimate concerns.

The reaction to the plans, incited by conservative groups in the USA, was far beyond anything appropriate. The offence taken by those that object to the centre stems not from any true wrongdoing, but instead stems from their prejudice against one group for the actions of one subset of that group. They fail to acknowledge the precedents set by members of their own (US citizens carried out the majority of terrorism in the US; white Christian males are the worst offenders) and call for a double standard of treatment, a rejection of basic human and Constitutional rights, and are prepared to incite violence out of a simple deliberate lack of understanding.

If anything, such outpouring of antiMuslim sentiment demonstrated by the protestors shows that the centre is necessary to preventing the rift between the western world and the Islamic world from growing further. The centre's stated aims of increasing respect and understanding between the two cultures will benefit the city in the short term, the country in the mid term, and the world in the long term.

This centre is the beginning of uniting against the bigotry and ignorance that lead to terrorism in the first place, and as one of the first steps in preventing that terrorism from having any effect or support in the future, it should be aided by any and all who wish to see peace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-08-2010 6:38 PM Adminnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 5606
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 387 of 406 (580453)
09-09-2010 7:04 AM


wtf
You know this issue continues. I think ending this thread would be premature. But we should keep it on topic.

I was watching an excerpt from the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf interview on Larry King live, and he said he has spent his whole life promoting peace. Which was refreshing to hear, but then he followed it up by saying that the decisions, and things we say from this point on about this whole Mosque deal can lead to attacks on us? That we can anger certain people over this? We have to be very careful? "our national security now hinges on how we deal with this?"It almost sounded like a threat to me. Like he knew who and what would happen if we didn't support this. Was kind of weird. Sounded like what an abusive husband would say to his wife right before he beats her for leaving him. Maybe Rrhain is right, I am paranoid.

http://www.cnn.com/...08/lkl.imam.feisal.abdul.rauf.cnn.html

Edited by riVeRraT, : added video link


Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 222 days)
Posts: 2854
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 388 of 406 (580455)
09-09-2010 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by riVeRraT
09-09-2010 7:04 AM


Re: wtf
riVeRraT writes:

I was watching an excerpt from the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf interview on Larry King live, and he said he has spent his whole life promoting peace. Which was refreshing to hear, but then he followed it up by saying that the decisions, and things we say from this point on about this whole Mosque deal can lead to attacks on us? That we can anger certain people over this? We have to be very careful? "our national security now hinges on how we deal with this?"It almost sounded like a threat to me. Like he knew who and what would happen if we didn't support this. Was kind of weird. Sounded like what an abusive husband would say to his wife right before he beats her for leaving him. Maybe Rrhain is right, I am paranoid.


It sounds like (perhaps exagerated) realism to me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by riVeRraT, posted 09-09-2010 7:04 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 222 days)
Posts: 2854
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 389 of 406 (580456)
09-09-2010 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Huntard
09-09-2010 7:12 AM


Summation so far...
Anyway,

What I think about this mosque (whihch isn't a mosque)? Build the damn thing. The people wanting to build this don't seem like assholes to me, so there is no reason to be dicks to them.

Anybody that is a dick to them becomes an asshole in my book, which means we can be dicks to them.

As long as people don't realize that their petty little things they hold so dear really aren't, assholes will abound, and it will take some dicks to show them just how silly they are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Huntard, posted 09-09-2010 7:12 AM Huntard has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 11008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 390 of 406 (580458)
09-09-2010 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by riVeRraT
09-09-2010 7:04 AM


Re: wtf
Didn't General Petraeus say much the same about the burning of the Koran ?

Islamist terrorists push the notion that the U.S. is at war with Islam. It's a recruiting tool for them. Why help the terrorists ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by riVeRraT, posted 09-09-2010 7:04 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
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