Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8796 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 10-23-2017 2:57 PM
343 online now:
1.61803, DrJones*, Granny Magda, PaulK, RAZD, rstrats, Taq (7 members, 336 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Upcoming Birthdays: DrJones*, willietern
Post Volume:
Total: 821,098 Year: 25,704/21,208 Month: 1,331/2,338 Week: 88/364 Day: 39/49 Hour: 4/5

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1617
18
1920
...
23Next
Author Topic:   The Common Ancestor?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 256 of 341 (693567)
03-18-2013 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Just being real
03-18-2013 3:12 AM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
JBR writes:

This is a similarity argument. Creationists claim that this is merely a result of a common creator.

The creator could also have make people quite different from all other creation, because we are apparently special and made in his image. But he didn't, he made us look exactly like we evolved over millions of years from ape ancestors.

Can you explain why he would do that?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Just being real, posted 03-18-2013 3:12 AM Just being real has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by kofh2u, posted 03-18-2013 11:52 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 265 by foreveryoung, posted 03-19-2013 2:21 AM Tangle has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 257 of 341 (693572)
03-18-2013 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Just being real
03-18-2013 3:07 AM


Re: Topic Reminder
Hi Just Being Real,

I issued topic reminders not because of anything anyone in particular said but because discussion in general seemed to be drifting away from common ancestry and onto intelligent design. Your description reflects a good sense of topic, but you have argued in other posts for special creation. This thread is simply seeking the evidence supporting common ancestry.

Maybe you'd like to propose a thread seeking the evidence for special creation. Or comparing the evidence for common ancestry with that for special creation.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Just being real, posted 03-18-2013 3:07 AM Just being real has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Just being real, posted 03-19-2013 10:16 AM Admin has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 258 of 341 (693575)
03-18-2013 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Just being real
03-18-2013 3:12 AM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
This is a similarity argument. Creationists claim that this is merely a result of a common creator.

The point is, creationists will say anything that lets them maintain their beliefs in the face of massive evidence to the contrary.

They can say whatever they want and it has all the effect of fleas thinking they are telling the dog where to go. They're a minor annoyance at best.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Just being real, posted 03-18-2013 3:12 AM Just being real has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1382 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 259 of 341 (693577)
03-18-2013 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Tangle
03-17-2013 1:47 PM


... both agree, then...?

Creationists do not explain anything,... they simply assert that god made things the way they are. That is not an explanation, it's a belief - or if you prefer - an opinion).

Science offers an explanation... (supported by evidence).

This has consistently been my position ona common ancestor between lower Apes and Apeman.

Genesis DOES NOT "offer explanations," but merely STATES the Spontaneous generation of a new species which scripture refers to as "adam,' and present paleontologists call "Sahelanthropus tchadensis."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Tangle, posted 03-17-2013 1:47 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1382 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 260 of 341 (693578)
03-18-2013 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Admin
03-16-2013 5:29 PM


Re: Topic Reminder

Hi Kofh2u,
This is a science thread inquiring about the common ancestor of man and ape. Please keep your discussion based upon evidence and focused on the topic. Correspondences between science and the Bible are not the topic of this thread, nor is anything else from the Bible.

Hey...

How about "reminding" this guy that his negative comments about me, what he purportedly claims I have said, absence any reference to such statements is Ad Homo crap?????

NOTE:

I am SURE you did not notice that everyone of my posts in the thread IS on topic.

Let me reiterate my input.

1) The Common Ancestor to man was a surrogate mother Ape within whose womb two of the normal 24 Ape Chromosomes fused together by some Act-of-God.

(Evidence submited by reference to genetic sy-tudies that found the two fused chromosomes.)

2) The result was the evolution of a new creature, a species with only 23 chromosomes, which over 7 million years underwent 22 more evolutionary changes into species evermore like us.

(Evidence submited by reference to latest book enumerating the list of the 22 now extinct humans in that ascent.)

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Admin, posted 03-16-2013 5:29 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Eli, posted 03-18-2013 7:57 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1382 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 261 of 341 (693579)
03-18-2013 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Tangle
03-18-2013 4:02 AM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor

The creator could also have make people quite different from all other creation, because we are apparently special and made in his image. But he didn't, he made us look exactly like we evolved over millions of years from ape ancestors.

Can you explain why he would do that?

YOU are off topic with this baiting.

YOU ignore that all this fellow has been saying is that, by an ACT of God, man was spontaneously generated from the atomic dust of the chromosomes which fused together and evolved a new species that had no parents of its own kind.

Because to him that is equivalent to saying the same force behind the Cosmic Creation did this, you oppose him absent any source of the fusing together except noting that mutations are fundamental to evolution inherent in the theory itself.

Edited by kofh2u, : typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2013 4:02 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Eli
Member (Idle past 1053 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


(1)
Message 262 of 341 (693617)
03-18-2013 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by kofh2u
03-18-2013 11:43 AM


Re: Topic Reminder
evidence /ˈevədəns/

Noun

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

The conclusions that you have drawn do not have any logical connection to what you are calling "evidence." You do not have any evidence for your claims. In fact, the evidence indicates that new species do not emerge from a single generation and especially not from a telemore fusion. Furthermore, "surrogate Ape mother" has no contextual meaning whatsoever. There was no surrogate mother. There was a series of biological mothers, generation after generation, that bridge the gap between less similar subspecies and more similar (recent) subspecies. We are talking millions of years.

Two fused chromosomes is the smoking gun for a relationship between humans and other apes, not that a new species emerged from a single pregnancy.

And your "22 evolutionary changes" doesn't even come close to represented the subject of the book you again mention out of context and drawing ZERO substance from it (since you apparently have never gotten beyond the cover and title)

You have submitted not one iota of evidence in support of these erroneous and easily rebuked claims.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by kofh2u, posted 03-18-2013 11:43 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1382 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 263 of 341 (693631)
03-19-2013 12:51 AM


... is there an honest person in the room...?
... is there an honest person in the room... and ONLY I have the easy to find science report on these things this Eli person says without presenting any source for his attempt to denigrate my claims?

I assume this is what EvC willing condones since he never posts anything of substance, fails to contradict any post, especially mine, with a reference or link to support his objections, and has had the nerve with Percy's acquiesence to insist that it is I who am spamming by answering back time and again with the links, grapic correspondences, books, science reports, etc.

Is there anyone here who will tell this jerk that the two fused chromosomes appeared 6 million years ago, and certainly suggest one particular mutation in one individual from who all humans today are related?

Does anyone here believe that the Book is misleading in supporting that 22 now extinct humans were species linked to the ascent of modern man?

Come on,... someone MUST be honest or this forum is a pack of liars.
Why post here?


Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Eli, posted 03-19-2013 1:49 AM kofh2u has not yet responded
 Message 270 by Admin, posted 03-19-2013 7:31 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

    
Eli
Member (Idle past 1053 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 264 of 341 (693643)
03-19-2013 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by kofh2u
03-19-2013 12:51 AM


Re: ... is there an honest person in the room...?
two fused chromosomes appeared 6 million years ago, and certainly suggest one particular mutation in one individual from who all humans today are related

I accept that.

But that is not what you are claiming. You claimed that it means that a new species was created and that this individual's mother was an "ape surrogate."

Basically you are implying a virgin birth scenario and seperating this individual from his mother as a seperate species, which is not the case.

Your links and graphics all point back to your own website. The graphics were made in a photo editing program BY YOU. Your claims are self referential. You are not an authority. You are not reporting on science.

Does anyone here believe that the Book is misleading in supporting that 22 now extinct humans were species linked to the ascent of modern man?

What page does the book claim this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 12:51 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 265 of 341 (693644)
03-19-2013 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Tangle
03-18-2013 4:02 AM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
It is our spiritual qualities that are a special creation. Our morphology is not anything special except for the amount of brain size that is not tied up in regular biological functions. It is the large amount of brain free to think abstractly that God used to create our "soul". By soul, I mean the ability to be spiritual. He did not guide evolution to arrive at our condition; instead, he finally found a species that would be capable of interfacing with a "soul" after about 700 million years of multi-cellular evolution.

Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2013 4:02 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2013 3:27 AM foreveryoung has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 266 of 341 (693646)
03-19-2013 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by foreveryoung
03-19-2013 2:21 AM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
foreveryoung writes:

It is our spiritual qualities that are a special creation. Our morphology is not anything special except for the amount of brain size that is not tied up in regular biological functions. It is the large amount of brain free to think abstractly that God used to create our "soul". By soul, I mean the ability to be spiritual. He did not guide evolution to arrive at our condition; instead, he finally found a species that would be capable of interfacing with a "soul" after about 700 million years of multi-cellular evolution.

Well sure, once believers accept that the earth is 4bn years old and that evolution is how we got here, (ie,the bible stories are myths), then the injection of a fictional soul into a critter that has evolved intelligence is the obvious next move by theologians determined to protect their beliefs.

But there is absolutely no evidence for this soul is there? It's just as fictional as the Adam and Eve stories.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by foreveryoung, posted 03-19-2013 2:21 AM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by foreveryoung, posted 03-19-2013 3:59 AM Tangle has responded

  
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 267 of 341 (693647)
03-19-2013 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Tangle
03-19-2013 3:27 AM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
The soul is the part of us that seeks to communicate with and understand its creator. Find me another animal that does this. BTW, myth does not mean false. Genesis is a collection of myths that tell a true story. Bronze age nomads could not understand either the concept of evolution or of deep time, and so myths built around the culture of the time were constructed to convey how we got here and why we are here. Does this mean that the message is false? No. If you try and use the language as a piece of modern scientific language, of course you will find it to be false. The message is that God is responsible for the universe and the earth and us being here. It is the answer for those with a "soul" who seek to communicate with their creator. The other things like talking snakes are not truly false either. Of course there were no talking snakes but there was an intelligent being who conversed with two people called adam and eve and tried to get them to believe that God did not have their best interests at heart. I see no reason not to believe there wasn't a garden and a forbidden tree. Of course there is no way to prove any of this happened. My point is that just because something is a myth does not make it untrue. It is just a truthful story that uses literary devices to make a point.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2013 3:27 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2013 4:40 AM foreveryoung has responded
 Message 269 by Eli, posted 03-19-2013 4:40 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 268 of 341 (693648)
03-19-2013 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by foreveryoung
03-19-2013 3:59 AM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
foreveryoung writes:

My point is that just because something is a myth does not make it untrue. It is just a truthful story that uses literary devices to make a point

I'm afraid that if something is a myth, then it is just a story and is untrue. There was no flood, there was no Adam, there was no snake, there was no 7 day creation and so on.

So, given that the core stories are, well just stories, why should we believe anything about other mythological things such as souls and our ability to communicate with an imaginary being?

There is no such thing as a soul - you know this as a simple fact. What you are describing is simply your mind trying to understand the world and clinging to myth as an explanation for the things you do not yet understand.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by foreveryoung, posted 03-19-2013 3:59 AM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by foreveryoung, posted 03-19-2013 5:21 PM Tangle has responded

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 1053 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 269 of 341 (693649)
03-19-2013 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by foreveryoung
03-19-2013 3:59 AM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
The soul is the part of us that seeks to communicate with and understand its creator.

There are two types of things in this world: That which we can control and/or make reasonable predictions/forsee accurate expectations, and that which we cannot control and that has an unknown nature to us. Whether a blessing or a malediction, the timing is a mystery to us.

Creators often are meant to give reason behind what we cannot control (earthquakes, lightening, and other natural events) and to give a sense of security in an uncertain world.

We try to seek out creators and to know them while they, too, are unknowable. We are compelled to do this out of fear and doubt. The "soul" is an emergence in response to anxiety.

Find me another animal that does not experience anxiety or refuses to seek comfort.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by foreveryoung, posted 03-19-2013 3:59 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 270 of 341 (693654)
03-19-2013 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by kofh2u
03-19-2013 12:51 AM


Re: ... is there an honest person in the room...?
Hi Kofh2u,

If you have problems to report then please take them to the Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0 (NOT A DISCUSSION TOPIC!!!) thread.

You have posted the image of the book The Last Human many times as if it somehow supported your views. Without taking any sides on the issue but just perusing the book as a normal reader of English it looks as if what many have been telling you is true, that you are misinterpreting what the book says. You are apparently allowing yourself to be misled by the subtitle, A Guide to Twenty-Two Species of Extinct Humans. First, there is only one species of humans, Homo sapiens, and it is not extinct. The book's title is wrong to imply that human evolutionary ancestors were also human. Second, the 22 extinct species were not all our ancestors, as the book makes clear. Many pages of the book can be found here at Google Books:

The Last Human at Google Books

If you think the book provides some helpful information for identifying the common ancestor between man and ape then it would be best to focus on that.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 12:51 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
1617
18
1920
...
23Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017