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Author Topic:   The Common Ancestor?
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1382 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 286 of 341 (693738)
03-19-2013 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by NoNukes
03-19-2013 1:25 PM


...of course we have scienc evidence...

1) Sahelanthropus tchadensis was not a human of any persuasion.

2) And this is way past stupid and completely fabricated. You have absolutely no clue as to how many chromosomes the direct descendants of Sahelanthropus tchadensis had, but we do know that no human being was birthed or sired directly by Sahelanthropus tchadensis. The estimated time of fusion I've seen are about a factor of 10 less than you are claiming here.

1) It is speculation in every case, but paleontologists are asserting that in their scheme of things this would be the oresent candidate for the earliest appearance of our branch off from the Apes,...

2) It is you who are opposing the scienc of genetics which supports the claim that the fused two chromosomes in humans may well be dated back... SCIENTIFICALLY, THRU GENETICS... to as far back as 6 million years ago.

"Chromosome 2 presents very strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes.
According to researcher J. W. IJdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.

Because the fused chromosome is unique to humans and is fixed, the fusion must have occurred ... \[B\]between 6 million\[B\] and ~1 million years ago (Mya; Chen and Li 2001; Yu et al. 2001) (Fig.5).


This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1382 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 287 of 341 (693740)
03-19-2013 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Coyote
03-19-2013 1:27 PM


Re: 11 science subforums on Evol Vs Creationism

KOFH2U:
The approximated date was 6 million years ago...
... when, by an Act-of-God, a surrogate mother Ape with 24 chromosomes experienced the chemical fusion of two chromosomes, hence evolving the new creature in God's world with only 23 chromosomes, i.e.; the first man, based upon the lineage all the way back to that fusion.

Coyote:
It has been pointed out by several posters how incorrect this is, but you keep repeating it. You seem to be preaching, more than debating, as you refuse to accept any evidence that shows you are wrong. (Again, see signature block.)

... and, I have time and again informed these posters you refer to that they are wrong.

You apparently are under the misconceptin that you and the others in your gang compose a majority and hence, by democracy, assert that even your errors can be maintained.

"Chromosome 2 presents very strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes.
According to researcher J. W. IJdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.
Because the fused chromosome is unique to humans and is fixed, the fusion must have occurred after the humanchimpanzee split, but before modern humans spread around the world, that is, between 6 million and ~1 million years ago (Mya; Chen and Li 2001; Yu et al. 2001) (Fig.5).

This suggests that if CHAD was the first in our line of ascent, it was he that experienced that FUSION of two chromosomes we all, in this line of 22 species, MUST have ever since had.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Coyote, posted 03-19-2013 1:27 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1382 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 288 of 341 (693741)
03-19-2013 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by foreveryoung
03-19-2013 5:21 PM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor

How do you know there was no adam? Just because there wasn't a talking snake doesn't mean there wasn't something there speaking to adam. There was no literal 7 day creation but this again is a literary device that is trying to make a point. There was a creation and the writer of Genesis divided it up into 7 periods.

You are more than correct.

Every scientists admits that there was an "Adam," of some missing link between us and the Apes from which we branched off and have become humans, distinct from our Ape forefathers.

And, the symbolism and necessary metaphorical report in Gnesis 2 and 3 is clearly about our conscious awakening, as the first thinking apes with an ever increasing degree of Free Will.
The snake is reference to our Superego, as is this Eve a symbolic reference o the "rib" of our seven fold psyche called the Anima, or the feminine principle found in us all.

The man is the Libido, and the Tree that had grown in all the species that lead to us, man, was the Self, the regulator inside our psyche which judges good from bad.

The seven "days" are as you say, long geological durations we now now call the seven eras that record the History of the Earth.


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foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 289 of 341 (693742)
03-19-2013 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Tangle
03-19-2013 6:23 PM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
Apart from there being absolutely no evidence for Adam except in the stories that you now call myths you mean?

So, you know that something doesn't exist if the only evidence for it is written down in a text? Like I said, myth does not mean a book of fairytales made out of whole cloth. There is truth behind it.

Well, we know that H. Sapiens evolved over hundreds of thousands of years from ape-like ancestors. Homo was not formed out of clay in an act of creation, so there was obviously no Adam.

I am sorry. I do not follow you at all. I know good and well the evolution of homo. Whether adam was actually formed out of clay or not is irrelevant. This says absolutely nothing as to whether or not adam existed.

The global flood you now also accept as bunkum but you're still trying to reconcile your new knowledge with the old. You'll soon work out that none of it works and that the only rational conclusion is agnostic. Most people at that point seem to remain vaguely deistic, some of us throw the whole thing out.

I believe there is a God. I believe he has revealed what he wants us to know about himself in the Bible. Just because I have thrown out old interpretations of the Bible doesn't mean that the Bible itself is a pack of lies. Much of what the bible says historically has been revealed to be true through archaelogy. Obviously the book is not equivalent to Alice in Wonderland.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1382 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 290 of 341 (693743)
03-19-2013 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Just being real
03-19-2013 10:16 AM


Re: Topic Reminder

I appreciate your position on the matter and am very glad to see that this forum has a medium in place to keep discussions from running down all sorts of "bunny trails." Perhaps though I was misinformed on the bigger picture here. I was operating under the impression that special creation versus evolution, was the over all intended back drop to all discussions? If that is incorrect I will immediately adjust, and I have already resisted the temptation to respond to baited comments in this thread that I can see lead off topic. However I did think that the topic of creation would come up from time to time in all the discussion threads.

I, too, was very very surprised to have discovered that the atheistic science-literati here had somehow perverted what seem to me to have been a division of science people from bible people into a censored Science Area that could occupy most all the space, (more than double the qualifying accepted proposed new threatds),... and that muc benigned pitance of 5 threads for people who apparently wanted to mumble on bythemselves.

Pick ANY of the supposed forums on the Science ONLY side of the site here and clearly, it is a veiled and subtle place where people can deride one aspect or another of what Bible people always hold at as their side of the discussion.

As Coyote said above, We science literati "have so much to say," as if that is a legitimate argument against fencing off what we have to say.

It censorship and arrogance that assumes the wolf pack has won the matter under discussion, aka EvC.


This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 749 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 291 of 341 (693744)
03-19-2013 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by foreveryoung
03-19-2013 7:16 PM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
I believe there is a God. I believe he has revealed what he wants us to know about himself in the Bible. Just because I have thrown out old interpretations of the Bible doesn't mean that the Bible itself is a pack of lies. Much of what the bible says historically has been revealed to be true through archaelogy. Obviously the book is not equivalent to Alice in Wonderland.

The verification of some historical and geographical context does not lend support to the remaining claims of a text, however.

For instance, the Harry Potter novels contain references to real cities like London, and also refers to WWII. Many works of fiction refer to real historical figures, real cities, real events.

But that doesn't add support for the remainde3r of those novels being true.

The existence of various cities, the accurate identification of governors and monarchs, these sorts of things are all well and good...but whether Pontius Pilate was or was not actually governor of Judea circa 30AD has nothing to do with whether Jesus actually existed, whether he was crucified, whether he rose from the dead, etc.

It has even less to do with whether or not god is real, or whether human beings did or did not evolve from ancestor species.

Obviously the book is not equivalent to Alice in Wonderland.

In what regard, specifically? Both contain fanciful tales of the impossible; the only difference is the number of people who believe that the events in question actually happened, and that the characters actually exist.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1382 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 292 of 341 (693746)
03-19-2013 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by foreveryoung
03-19-2013 7:16 PM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor

Well, we know that H. Sapiens evolved over hundreds of thousands of years from ape-like ancestors. Homo was not formed out of clay in an act of creation, so there was obviously no Adam.

I am sorry. I do not follow you at all. I know good and well the evolution of homo. Whether adam was actually formed out of clay or not is irrelevant. This says absolutely nothing as to whether or not adam existed.

I have told these supposedly cience literate people that Modern Hom sapiens is merely the last of 22 Ape-men with 23 Chromosomes all of whom link back to that SCIENTIFICALLY hypthesized first missing link that split off from the Apes.

Everyone agrees that a first man appeared around 7 million years ago, in the form of the first bud on the new branch off from our Ape relatives.
We Bible people call this Adam.
They call him the missing link, and recently suggest that he may not be missing any longer, i.e.; Sahelanthropus tchadensis.

AND... amazingly, this fusion of two chromosomes supports the Bible in the claim the evolution was by a chemical mutation, not by some evolutionary process of slowly transforming into human-like animals from apes that had gotten smarter.


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 293 of 341 (693747)
03-19-2013 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by foreveryoung
03-19-2013 7:16 PM


Re: Chimpanzee-human last common ancestor
foreveryoung writes:

So, you know that something doesn't exist if the only evidence for it is written down in a text?

That's too convoluted for me.
We know that things are true when we can test them. If the only evidence for something is that it's written down in a book that we both accept is myth, then we can reasonably assume that it isn't true. There is no other rational way to look at it.

Like I said, myth does not mean a book of fairytales made out of whole cloth. There is truth behind it.

And today, you'll pick some things from the bible as false that last year you argued were true. And next year you'll pick a new set. Faith will pick all of it as true and a catholic will pick something else.

The point here us that the bible is discredited, it's an unreliable source. It isn't god's word - which is it's only point - it's a bunch of myths and stories, some of which are nice, helpful analogies, some are horrific and amoral.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1382 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 294 of 341 (693748)
03-19-2013 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Rahvin
03-19-2013 7:30 PM


...of course not,... the facts do though...

The verification of some historical and geographical context does not lend support to the remaining claims of a text, however.

Of course you are correct, but we are presenting FACTS that support this text of Genesis.

The fusion of those two Ape chromosomes means that the first human branch-off from Apes was a chemical process in which one initial ape-man, (a mutation that created apes with only 23 chromosomes thereafter).

These next 22 species of this Ape-man developed from the chemical dust of this earth into Modern homo sapiens thru the 22 genealogical series of names given to them by the Jewish Bible writers, and they are comparable to our own list of 22 today.

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6016
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 295 of 341 (693753)
03-19-2013 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by kofh2u
03-19-2013 7:03 PM


Wrong again?
kofh2u writes:

Because the fused chromosome is unique to humans and is fixed, the fusion must have occurred after the humanchimpanzee split, but before modern humans spread around the world, that is, between 6 million and ~1 million years ago (Mya; Chen and Li 2001; Yu et al. 2001) (Fig.5).

This suggests that if CHAD was the first in our line of ascent, it was he that experienced that FUSION of two chromosomes we all, in this line of 22 species, MUST have ever since had.

Wiki writes:

Sahelanthropus tchadensis is an extinct hominid species that is dated to about 7 million years ago, very close to the time of the chimpanzee/human divergence, and so it is unclear whether it can be regarded as a member of the Hominini tribe.

Your dates do not match those cited on Wiki. You are noting, correctly, based on the two citations you quote, that the fused chromosome occurred after the human-chimpanzee split. However, Wiki seems to place the Chad specimen 1 to 6 million years earlier and most importantly, the scientists involved do not place that specimen after the human-chimpanzee split. Opinions are still divided:

quote:
[Chad] is approximately a million years older than the next oldest known hominid, dating to approximately seven million years in age. ...

Without more evidence for example, femur and pelvic bones, or a complete and undistorted skull the issue of S. tachadensiss mode of locomotion [and hence placement with relation to the human-chimpanzee split] is unlikely to be resolved satisfactorily.

http://www.public.wsu.edu/...r/timeline/04_s_tchadensis.html


Once again, you are taking liberties with the data.

And you are still claiming that the Chad specimen is Adam, the first human, while paleoanthropologists place Chad in a different genus entirely.

How do you explain these discrepancies?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 7:03 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 296 of 341 (693754)
03-19-2013 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by kofh2u
03-19-2013 6:50 PM


Re: ...of course we have scienc evidence...
t is you who are opposing the scienc of genetics which supports the claim that the fused two chromosomes in humans may well be dated back... SCIENTIFICALLY, THRU GENETICS... to as far back as 6 million years ago.

No, that would be you. See for example:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1987345

quote:
We examined fixed substitutions in the human lineage since divergence from the common ancestor with the chimpanzee, and determined what fraction are AT to GC (weak-to-strong). Substitutions that are densely clustered on the chromosomes show a remarkable excess of weak-to-strong biased substitutions. These unexpected biased clustered substitutions (UBCS) are common near the telomeres of all autosomes but not the sex chromosomes. Regions of extreme bias are enriched for genes. Human and chimp orthologous regions show a striking similarity in the shape and magnitude of their respective UBCS maps, suggesting a relatively stable force leads to clustered bias. The strong and stable signal near telomeres may have participated in the evolution of isochores. One exception to the UBCS pattern found in all autosomes is chromosome 2, which shows a UBCS peak midchromosome, mapping to the fusion site of two ancestral chromosomes. This provides evidence that the fusion occurred as recently as 740,000 years ago and no more than ∼3 million years ago.

In either case, both estimates argue against the time of fusion happening during the existence of Sahelanthropus tchadensis. Accordingly science is not consistent with your claim that Sahelanthropus tchadensis is either Adam of the surrogate mother of Adam.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes. Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6016
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 297 of 341 (693756)
03-19-2013 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by kofh2u
03-19-2013 7:42 PM


Straying from the facts
These next 22 species of this Ape-man developed from the chemical dust of this earth into Modern homo sapiens thru the 22 genealogical series of names...

There are not 22 species between Chad and modern humans. Many of those 22 species are side branches that died out!

Here is a chart that shows some of that (click to enlarge):

http://www.cartage.org.lb/...ds/ChartHumanEvolution/evol.gif


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 7:42 PM kofh2u has responded

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 298 of 341 (693757)
03-19-2013 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by kofh2u
03-19-2013 7:42 PM


Re: ...of course not,... the facts do though...
kofh2u writes:

Of course you are correct, but we are presenting FACTS that support this text of Genesis.

Not in this thread, you're not. This thread is not about your pet theory that there's a correspondence between Biblical races and personages and ancestral hominid species. You're welcome to begin another thread proposal for that topic over at Proposed New Topics, but you can't keep trying to shift discussion of threads on other topics onto your pet theory.

Since you've been here for nearly a decade you know I've said many times that EvC Forum exists to examine creationism's claim that it is every bit as much science as evolution. Science is all about evidence, and if your arguments are scientific then you shouldn't have any trouble coming up with evidence for them.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 299 of 341 (693758)
03-19-2013 8:53 PM


Topic Reminder
Folks: Kof2hu's ideas about Genesis and human evolutionary ancestry are not the topic of this thread. He's not going to be able to discuss his theory until he gets a thread through the topic proposal process, but that doesn't seem likely. Since there seems to be interest I'll move his thread proposal over to the Free For All forum.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
Eli
Member (Idle past 1054 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 300 of 341 (693785)
03-19-2013 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by kofh2u
03-19-2013 6:50 PM


Re: ...of course we have scienc evidence...
paleontologists are asserting that in their scheme of things this would be the oresent candidate for the earliest appearance of our branch off from the Apes

No, they are not. They have not even determined if Chad existed before or after our branch off from the other apes.


This message is a reply to:
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