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Author Topic:   Church Is Not Enough?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 16 of 110 (578791)
09-02-2010 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tram law
09-01-2010 4:49 PM


Re: Religion in Schools
Hi Tram,

Tram law writes:

As for me, I will never support religion in schools.

I can agree with that.

I can also agree with the Continental Congress that the Bible is a good book.

In 1781 Robert Aitken presented a petition to Congress offering to print "a neat Edition of the Holy Scripture for the use of Schools.

For those who question whether congress approved the printing you can find a copy of the Journals of Congress Here.

And Here.

Tram law writes:

Christianity teaches that only proper Christians get to go to heaven,

As you did not define your meaning of Christianity, proper Christian and religion it is hard to follow your OP.

If you mean by Christianity as those who claim to be a christian then you are probably right in your assesment.

If you mean by proper Christian as being a person who has been born again of the Holy Spirit and are living their life like Christ lived His life, yes they will be in Heaven.

But they are not the only people who will be in Heaven.

Tram law writes:

And for me, if God exists, it is only God who gets to determine who is a proper Christian.

God did set the rules and we can not change them.

John writes:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

These verses says God loved mankind and provided a way mankind could be saved. Jesus did not come to condemn mankind as mankind was already condemned.

God gives the only reason mankind is condemned and that is not believeing in what took place at Calvary and accepting that by believing in Jesus for their salvation.

God set no other requirements to become a child of His.

All children of God will be in Heaven.

Tram law writes:

To that end, I have to ask, why isn't Church and the home enough?

You have those in the wrong order.

The order should be home and then Church.

Because the home is in a shambles, the Church is in a shambles and our country is in total chaos.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tram law, posted 09-01-2010 4:49 PM Tram law has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Tram law, posted 09-02-2010 6:29 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 19 by nator, posted 09-03-2010 7:52 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply
 Message 20 by purpledawn, posted 09-03-2010 8:10 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 23 by frako, posted 09-17-2010 3:27 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 951 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 17 of 110 (578796)
09-02-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tram law
09-02-2010 2:19 PM


Re: Why is Church Not Enough?
quote:
So how do we determine what is safe and nonthreatening behavior, and how do we do that and enforce it without stepping on the students' civil rights?
Of the whole post you ask a question that doesn't deal with religion and has an obvious answer.

Who determines the rules of the school? The school system and depending on the school system, sometimes the parents. Our society has a general idea of what is considered safe and nonthreatening behavior.

You gave me nothing to expand on concerning the topic.

Edited by purpledawn, : Changed teachers to parents.


This message is a reply to:
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Tram law
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 18 of 110 (578823)
09-02-2010 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
09-02-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Religion in Schools
quote:

As you did not define your meaning of Christianity, proper Christian and religion it is hard to follow your OP.

Actually its a hard thing do because each sect of Christianity claims that it and only it is the proper way of being a Christian.

quote:

God did set the rules and we can not change them.

So that means we are still bound by the laws set in Leviticus. We can not change rules. But that's a really poor claim because Christianity has changed over time. If Christianity could never change under any circumstances then there would be no sects of Christianity.

But that is another topic for another time. Please stay on topic.

Edited by Tram law, : added a phrase


This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2137 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 19 of 110 (578956)
09-03-2010 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
09-02-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Religion in Schools
God did set the rules and we can not change them.

Nor can we know we know them.

All we have are fallible human assertions of what some of them believe god's rules to be, with no way to check which ones are right.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 951 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 20 of 110 (578965)
09-03-2010 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
09-02-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Religion in Schools
quote:
You have those in the wrong order.

The order should be home and then Church.

Because the home is in a shambles, the Church is in a shambles and our country is in total chaos.


Just because some churches aren't doing their job to teach their religion, doesn't mean it is up to the public school system to teach their religion.

In this nation a public school system would need to teach about all religions to keep it balanced.

I don't have a problem with a class that gives general overviews of various religions, but I don't think the public school system is the place to teach the tenants of any specific religion. There are too many variables within each religion and many parents are very very picky about what religious traditions are taught. They may not be teaching it at home, but they don't want anyone else to either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 09-02-2010 4:15 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 09-04-2010 1:06 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 21 of 110 (579400)
09-04-2010 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by purpledawn
09-03-2010 8:10 AM


Re: Religion in Schools
Hi PD,

purpledawn writes:

Just because some churches aren't doing their job to teach their religion, doesn't mean it is up to the public school system to teach their religion.

If religion is ever taught in government controled schools it would probably be necessary to teach it in a philosophy class to avoid being unconstitutional. The constitution states the government is not allowed to establish a national religion or church. To teach any one version would be establishing a national religion.

quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
.

So I seem to agree with you that my specific religious beliefs should not be taught in a public school system.

There are private schools that do that quite well.

God Bless,

This is one of the most misunderstood statements ever made.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
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Deleted
Inactive Junior Member


Message 22 of 110 (581657)
09-16-2010 7:34 PM


I dont really see why teaching christianity (or any other religion) is such a big deal. It mostly depends on how it is being given to students.

I can see that opinions about it might be a bit spreaded if it is being thaught by a pastor, or a teacher who is generally interested in the subject.
According to wikipedia more then 4 billion people believe a major religion, neither is it a subject you never come across.
While at school I often get questions about christianity which they would know if they ever looked up something on the internet, or if they would have had some lessons about it.


Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Nij, posted 09-17-2010 6:15 AM Deleted has acknowledged this reply

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 23 of 110 (581709)
09-17-2010 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
09-02-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Religion in Schools
i dunno abbout the us, but in slovenia there is a very clear line betwean church and state, though this is true there are 2 high schools that are very christian i dunno where they get their funds probably from the church and a small portion from the state, a lot of parrents send their kids to those high schools cause they are colsed communeties and they think their kids will be safe from drugs ...., and that their kids will get a moral upbringing there most are dissapointed i had 5 friends go to that high school 4 of them are fu***ed up none of them have fhinished collage none of them have jobs 2 of them are pot smoking hipies, one turned to the ocoult the 4th is a slut that rides anyone that will take care of her when he gets tired she finds another.

althouhg i think it has more to do whit their methods than the belief itself, from what i understand they wake up at 06:00 for mas each day there after mass prayer before breakfast then school prayer before lunch (at 11:00) more school, a mass in between at 12:00 prayer before lunch nr 2 at (15:00 ), then learning hours till 18:00 some more prayer then dinner 3 hours of time for hobbies like bible study chess .... then lights out at 22:00. the kids there have no time to rebel cause they live in a cloister for gods sakes i would never on my life send my kids there. that is what happens when priests get a educators degree and they think they know how handle kids.

as for the guy that said students have no rights try saying that here they would tare you to pieces we have a very active student community that protests for every small right that might be in danger on a regular basis at one time it got a bit out of hand and they stoned the parlament they wrecked and smashed every window.

http://www.mojvideo.com/...ki-parlament/2ade564f96027a777c7f
this is a report of the protest a bit biast, they where protesting some social rights that if removed could have caused studiying from being a right to being a privilage for those that could afford it.


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Nij
Member (Idle past 2384 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 24 of 110 (581713)
09-17-2010 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Deleted
09-16-2010 7:34 PM


I dont really see why teaching christianity (or any other religion) is such a big deal.

There's this thing called "secular government".

It means that no public instituition is allowed to put one religion over or below any other in any way. Teaching one and not others in a public school is effectively free advertising for that one religion, and that's putting one religion over all others.

Which is illegal in any half-decent democracy. So, do you see where the problem is now?

It mostly depends on how it is being given to students.

But teaching it in its own class is not good enough. Because of the reasons above.

Teaching it in a comparative religions or philosophical history class would be okay, and (almost) all others in the thread have agreed so, as long as it was not promoted above the others.


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 Message 22 by Deleted, posted 09-16-2010 7:34 PM Deleted has acknowledged this reply

  
Strongbow
Junior Member (Idle past 2404 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 09-16-2010


Message 25 of 110 (581722)
09-17-2010 7:36 AM


One thing that strikes me about this discussion is that many Christians are in favor of teaching creationism in schools and it's further clear that each one thinks that the version taught will be THEIR version.

But how would a YECer feel if OEC were the version of creationism taught. How would both feel if it were a version of ID that accepts common descent?

One of the main reasons the founders wanted separation was to avoid such sectarianism, and that's quite beside the issue that no version of creationism is remotely scientific.


    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 110 (581749)
09-17-2010 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tram law
09-01-2010 4:49 PM


For proponents of putting religion in schools, why isn't Church and the home enough? Why must religion be taught in schools?

First, it is important to distinguish between the different ways that religion can be included in education. Now, I have this feeling that you are referring not to the folk who wish simply to teach about religion(s) in school, but to the folk who would like school to serve as a promoter of a specific religion (in the U.S., it is often some conservative, extremist, fundamentalist form of Christianity).

In terms of the latter group, I believe their primary aim is not to increase religion in the schools, but to decrease education. By pushing their religion into the classroom, they subtract time from other academic disciplines that they feel are immoral, such as science, sex education, history, math, etc. By replacing these blasphemous school subjects with something clearly non-blasphemous, they feel they can push out the invasion of modern immoral education in schools and thus save their children's souls... from the boogieman, no doubt.

Most would likely rather do away with public schooling entirely. Indeed, many do just that, not by destroying it, necessarily1, but by removing their children from the public schools to either indoctrinate them in the comfort of their home or send them to CCoI avoidance schools, where the worries of Satan's army of teachers no longer exists.

Jon
__________
1 Of course, the goal of public education being to educate the public, when groups of folk refuse to partake in the activity, they, in effect, destroy it by working against its goals.


"Can we say the chair on the cat, for example? Or the basket in the person? No, we can't..." - Harriet J. Ottenheimer

"Dim bulbs save on energy..." - jar


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tram law, posted 09-01-2010 4:49 PM Tram law has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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barbara
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 27 of 110 (581871)
09-17-2010 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jon
09-17-2010 10:48 AM


Church is definitely enough
Religious teachings in the education system is not practical in that you have to have all faiths included. The church of your faith is the extension of education to your children. Why you feel they must be taught under the same roof is the question.
This message is a reply to:
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Purpledbear
Member (Idle past 2266 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 28 of 110 (607276)
03-02-2011 10:09 PM


Yes!

The primary reason my 12 year old daughter knows that religion is stupid is because we read the bible. If examined/read as one would read a biology book there is no better book than the bible in the world to show what a vile & disgusting creature YHWH is.

My concern would be that the teacher would not treat the bible as any other book. If this were the case it could be dealt with. So, hell ya! Teach that crap to my kid so I do not have to stress over it at home.


    
arigatou 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1885 days)
Posts: 3
From: New York
Joined: 03-19-2012


Message 29 of 110 (656679)
03-20-2012 10:31 PM


If you want to religious teaching in schools, their tenants, then the answer seems to be yes, they do not reach enough people through their own channels or channel is not valid.

Edited by Admin, : Spamify sig.


Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 30 of 110 (656686)
03-21-2012 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by arigatou
03-20-2012 10:31 PM


Hi arigatou, and welcome to the fray.

If you want to religious teaching in schools, their tenants, then the answer seems to be yes, they do not reach enough people through their own channels or channel is not valid.

Indeed, there seem to be a group of rather desperate (imho) believers that think that every single aspect of their lives needs to be tied up in their beliefs or they are in danger of losing their faith. Every waking moment, every breath, every thought.

From my point of view this is a very weak form of faith, being so vulnerable to the slightest perturbation of wind by the wings of a butterfly. Sad to be so scared of exposure to any other kind of thinking.

Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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