Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 113 (8790 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-25-2017 9:17 AM
86 online now:
edge, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), RAZD, Stile, Tangle (6 members, 80 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Upcoming Birthdays: Porosity, Tempe 12ft Chicken
Post Volume:
Total: 819,416 Year: 24,022/21,208 Month: 1,987/2,468 Week: 80/416 Day: 35/45 Hour: 1/5

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123456
7
8Next
Author Topic:   Church Is Not Enough?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13133
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 91 of 110 (674492)
09-29-2012 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 7:04 AM


quote:

I would call this affirming the consequent.

If you did, you'd be wrong.

quote:

No one has ever bred a primate into a human.

Humans ARE primates.

quote:

No. I have quarrel with macroevolution. What I see you describing is microevolution. Something which I totally agree with. I can even see that happening before my eyes.

Where do you see me describing microevolution ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 7:04 AM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 6:52 PM PaulK has responded

    
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 92 of 110 (674497)
09-29-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by NoNukes
09-29-2012 9:16 AM


Re: Assumptions
quote:
Yes. The logical basis for considering your conclusion to be unsupported is that authors do not make any claim that rape is not evil. If you believe that to be wrong, you need to show it using excerpts from the book. The book's title does not support your claim. It is indeed inane to reach your conclusion from the book's title.

I said I did so from an interview, which I linked. (You must have missed it)

quote:
Yes, there are a number of logical reasons to reach that conclusion. For example, the conclusion that murder, theft, and mistreating one's neighbor are evil can be reached by looking at the consequences for society or even the individual provided that considerations other than immediate gratification are taken into account. I'll agree that we cannot reach a conclusion to keep the Sabbath using that type of reasoning.

Well, what about survival of the fittest? Do you agree with that?

quote:
"American style" ?? Americans did not invent chattel slavery.

America style because it is the most famous example.

quote:
Have you ever actually read the Bible?
Given that your claim that the Biblical slavery means indentured servitude is demonstrably wrong, you don't get off with that response. There are several types of slavery endorsed in the Bible including types involving ownership and beatings. For example:

Actually I have.
Im going to take into account some historical context. Relativist as that may seem to you. See: http://creation.com/bible-injustice

Re: Rape. Firstly, I never said I accepted that. I said that from the view that there is no purpose, rape cant be wrong, or right. This is supported by scholars, who I cited talking about their book. In the interview link. It is hard to excerpt an interview.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2012 9:16 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2012 6:48 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 93 of 110 (674500)
09-29-2012 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by jar
09-29-2012 10:18 AM


The language they are talking about (and I did peruse more than several) is communication....like dogs howling. Not at all like what we are doing. Grammar, logic, etc.

You actually searched for primate cooperation, not primate reasoning, I don't dispute that they do cooperate, I dispute that they reason, like thinkers. I searched for "primate reasoning" and found none.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 09-29-2012 10:18 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 09-29-2012 6:51 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9929
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 94 of 110 (674505)
09-29-2012 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 6:31 PM


Re: Assumptions
m going to take into account some historical context. Relativist as that may seem to you.

Exactly. Apparently having a purpose is no impediment to relativism. I find it interesting that you are unable to say that slavery is evil.

I said that from the view that there is no purpose, rape cant be wrong, or right.

Did not the Hebrews have a purpose?

Well, what about survival of the fittest? Do you agree with that?

Are you suggesting that if I accept evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life, that I also endorse the idea that strong men should dominate the weak? As it turns out, I don't endorse that idea. But yes, survival of the fitest is the law of animals in the jungle.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 6:31 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 7:03 PM NoNukes has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 95 of 110 (674506)
09-29-2012 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 6:39 PM


Utter nonsense.

Communication is communication and in addition they can use language, form sentences and transmit information just as we do. They can even learn and use ASL and pass the knowledge on to future generations.

Cooperation requires reasoning. But it goes beyond cooperation and includes planning and as well as tool creation and use.

Why is it you seem afraid to admit that humans are just another primate, another chordate, another animal?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 6:39 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 7:09 PM jar has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 96 of 110 (674507)
09-29-2012 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by PaulK
09-29-2012 1:56 PM


quote:
If you did, you'd be wrong.

Would I? Unlike you, I would not be relying on self-evident remarks. I would actually explain myself.

1. If negative mutations did not have an effect (P), then we would be here (Q)
2. We are here (Q)
3. Therefore, negative mutations did not have an effect.

It is disingenuous to just claim that what I say is wrong without first asking my reasons for doing so. (Yeah, throw that back at me )

Humans are primates? See my conversation with, was it, ringo?

Microevolution is change that is incapable of bringing a microbe to a man. Microevolution uses all that you have described to change maybe a canine ancestor to their varied types of the current age.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2012 1:56 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2012 3:17 AM LimpSpider has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 97 of 110 (674510)
09-29-2012 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by NoNukes
09-29-2012 6:48 PM


Re: Assumptions
quote:
Exactly. Apparently having a purpose is no impediment to relativism. I find it interesting that you are unable to say that slavery is evil.

Yes, I do find that hard to say. It totally depends on what kind of a slave a person is. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slave

quote:
Did not the Hebrews have a purpose?

I dont think Im Hebrew. And I was talking about those with no purpose. The Hebrews have a purpose.

quote:
Are you suggesting that if I accept evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life, that I also endorse the idea that strong men should dominate the weak? As it turns out, I don't endorse that idea. But yes, survival of the fitest is the law of animals in the jungle.

Well, then it brings to mind the question, Are we animals?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2012 6:48 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2012 10:15 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 98 of 110 (674511)
09-29-2012 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
09-29-2012 6:51 PM


This leads to a round and round about the merry-go-round. Language is communication. Communication is not language. Humans use language. Animals do not. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language Even wikipedia admits its unique to humans.

quote:
Cooperation requires reasoning. But it goes beyond cooperation and includes planning and as well as tool creation and use.

http://www.nature.com/...ournal/v489/n7416/full/489374a.html Interesting article differentiating cooperation and reasoning.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 09-29-2012 6:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 09-29-2012 7:16 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 99 of 110 (674513)
09-29-2012 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 7:09 PM


When someone looks at a problem and figures out a solution is it not reasoning?

When they transmit that solution to another person is that not using reasoning?

When two people decide to cooperate in order to accomplish a task is that not reasoning?

When someone uses ASL to make a request is that not using language?

Why are you afraid to admit that you are just another primate, another Chordate, another animal?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 7:09 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 8:55 PM jar has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 100 of 110 (674517)
09-29-2012 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
09-29-2012 7:16 PM


You are equivocating, or otherwise known as bait-and-switch. I have already given you all required information about the distinctions between the two. What makes you think I'm afraid? You refuse to acknowledge the distinction, and have at least twice used equivocation. Therefore, I will not continue.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 09-29-2012 7:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 09-29-2012 9:14 PM LimpSpider has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 101 of 110 (674521)
09-29-2012 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 8:55 PM


When someone looks at a problem and figures out a solution is it not reasoning?

When they transmit that solution to another person is that not using reasoning?

When two people decide to cooperate in order to accomplish a task is that not reasoning?

When someone uses ASL to make a request is that not using language?

Why are you afraid to admit that you are just another primate, another Chordate, another animal?

What does any of this have to do with the topic?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 8:55 PM LimpSpider has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9929
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 102 of 110 (674524)
09-29-2012 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 7:03 PM


Re: Assumptions
It totally depends on the what kind of slave a person is

Well let's lock down the type of slavery. I'm referring to slavery as described in the Bible verses I referenced. The type involving beatings nearly to the death. The type the Bible says God told the Hebrews to practice on the people they conquered and cited in my previous post.

But perhaps you've already answered the question. You think that some versions of slavery are just peachy.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 7:03 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 11:11 PM NoNukes has responded

    
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 103 of 110 (674525)
09-29-2012 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by NoNukes
09-29-2012 10:15 PM


Re: Assumptions
I would like to note that the laws were merely regulating what was already in place. Not instructions to DO something that was not being done.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2012 10:15 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2012 11:40 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9929
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 104 of 110 (674526)
09-29-2012 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 11:11 PM


Slip sliding away.
laws were merely regulating what was already in place

So you acknowledge that you are fully aware of the type of slavery that I am talking about and that it is not indentured servitude. Yet you refuse to condemn the practice.

You should not expect me to find your future arguments based on relativism the least bit credible.

Further with respect to raping and pilaging, the passage cited included instructions on how to proceed. As if that were anything but a duck the question strategy on your part


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 11:11 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by LimpSpider, posted 09-30-2012 2:09 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 105 of 110 (674527)
09-29-2012 11:44 PM


The connection between the topic of this thread and anything at all that anyone's posting on it seems to have vanished.
Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2012 10:18 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Prev123456
7
8Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017