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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Trae
Member (Idle past 1869 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 571 of 657 (613227)
04-22-2011 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 568 by Theodoric
04-22-2011 10:49 PM


Re: Buzsaw Evidence Recapped
Theodoric writes:

The Sahara is not all sand dunes.


I don't recall saying it was, can you point out where I said that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2011 10:49 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 572 of 657 (613233)
04-23-2011 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 569 by Buzsaw
04-22-2011 11:08 PM


Re: Nuweiba Beach A Delta
Buzsaw writes:

Regarding the mountain, in Message 506 I said:

quote:
As to the blackened mountain, there was some question about what gave the mountain the dark appearance. The fact remains that there is a dark topped mountain in the right secession of ducts corroborating my acclaimed evidences

All I'm stating about the mountain is that it does appear black topped and it is in the right place in the row. That's it. My understanding is that researchers are not allowed access for study on it.

Message 506 is your reference message, and it contains no evidence of a mountain that is "black topped," and no evidence of a row of mountains only one of which is "black topped." Please produce this evidence before moving on to anything else.

About lack of access to the region, let's say someone's been stealing your garden tomatoes, and a neighbor comes to you and says he has a picture of someone in the act and that it is Old Weird Bob from down the street. You ask to see the picture, but your neighbor won't show it to you. Do you then conclude it was Old Weird Bob, or do you get just a little bit suspicious that you're not permitted to see the photograph.

You see, Buz, what I know is that this really is a sacred mountain and that buried at its base at the foot of a perpetual and mysterious fountain is an ancient document stating that Unitarianism is the one true religion. Unfortunately we're not permitted access, so you'll just have to take my word for it. I know I don't have Wyatt's flair, but hey, trust me!

Sorry the digression, but I'm making a point. One must have evidence, and in the absence of evidence one must refrain from reaching conclusions. At EvC Forum we seek to keep discussions firmly grounded in evidence, and you continually refer to your "corroborated evidences supportive to your hypothesis." So please produce the evidence for these blackened mountain tops.

As moderator I have no stake in the outcome of this discussion. My sole concern is that though your messages continually refer to evidence in your earlier messages, when I examine those messages I can find no such evidence, and no one else can find it either. Your recent history is that when you join a thread you turn the other participants into beggars for evidence, and this is the last place that this should happen. That's why we're going through this exercise of actually identifying your evidence. I don't care whether the evidence supports a flood or the Exodus or anything else Biblical. All I care about is that when a member claims evidence exists then it damn well better exist:

  1. Avoid any form of misrepresentation.

Edited by Admin, : Grammar.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Buzsaw, posted 04-22-2011 11:08 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 573 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2011 8:22 AM Admin has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 573 of 657 (613246)
04-23-2011 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 572 by Admin
04-23-2011 7:24 AM


Re: Nuweiba Beach A Delta
Admin writes:

Buzsaw writes:

Regarding the mountain, in Message 506 I said:

quote:
As to the blackened mountain, there was some question about what gave the mountain the dark appearance. The fact remains that there is a dark topped mountain in the right secession of ducts corroborating my acclaimed evidences

All I'm stating about the mountain is that it does appear black topped and it is in the right place in the row. That's it. My understanding is that researchers are not allowed access for study on it.

Message 506 is your reference message, and it contains no evidence of a mountain that is "black topped," and no evidence of a row of mountains only one of which is "black topped." Please produce this evidence before moving on to anything else.

About lack of access to the region, let's say someone's been stealing your garden tomatoes, and a neighbor comes to you and says he has a picture of someone in the act and that it is Old Weird Bob from down the street. You ask to see the picture, but your neighbor won't show it to you. Do you then conclude it was Old Weird Bob, or do you get just a little bit suspicious that you're not permitted to see the photograph.

You see, Buz, what I know is that this really is a sacred mountain and that buried at its base at the foot of a perpetual and mysterious fountain is an ancient document stating that Unitarianism is the one true religion. Unfortunately we're not permitted access, so you'll just have to take my word for it. I know I don't have Wyatt's flair, but hey, trust me!

Sorry the digression, but I'm making a point. One must have evidence, and in the absence of evidence one must refrain from reaching conclusions. At EvC Forum we seek to keep discussions firmly grounded in evidence, and you continually refer to your "corroborated evidences supportive to your hypothesis." So please produce the evidence for these blackened mountain tops.

As moderator I have no stake in the outcome of this discussion. My sole concern is that though your messages continually refer to evidence in your earlier messages, when I examine those messages I can find no such evidence, and no one else can find it either. Your recent history is that when you join a thread you turn the other participants into beggars for evidence, and this is the last place that this should happen. That's why we're going through this exercise of actually identifying your evidence. I don't care whether the evidence supports a flood or the Exodus or anything else Biblical. All I care about is that when a member claims evidence exists then it damn well better exist:

  1. Avoid any form of misrepresentation.

In your Message 195 you posted this image of the area in question:


View Larger Map

Admittedly, the largest mountain is not the only one appearing black topped. In my Message 506 I said:

quote:
As to the blackened mountain, there was some question about what gave the mountain the dark appearance. The fact remains that there is a dark topped mountain in the right secession of ducts corroborating my acclaimed evidences.

Again, the mountain having the appearance of a blackened top in itself, though unusual, would not be of much significance, void of the fact that it's in the right position in my duck row of acclaimed evidences.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by Admin, posted 04-23-2011 7:24 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by Admin, posted 04-23-2011 8:53 AM Buzsaw has responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 574 of 657 (613247)
04-23-2011 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Buzsaw
04-23-2011 8:22 AM


Re: Nuweiba Beach A Delta
Buzsaw writes:

Admittedly, the largest mountain is not the only one appearing black topped. In my Message 506 I said:

quote:
As to the blackened mountain, there was some question about what gave the mountain the dark appearance. The fact remains that there is a dark topped mountain in the right secession of ducts corroborating my acclaimed evidences.

The reason I posted an interactive Google map was so you could scroll around and see that not only do most mountains in the region appear darker on top, there are also much darker mountains. Scroll around south east and notice how many mountains are as dark and darker on top. If you zoom in on each mountain you'll see that most of the difference in darkness is shade, not actual coloration.

What is your evidence that your chosen mountain's "blackened top" which is apparently mostly just shadows is much different from any of the other mountains in the region?

Also, we still have no idea which specific mountain in the Google map is your Mount Sinai. You referred to one of them as "the largest mountain," but from this satellite view it seems impossible to judge height. Are you going by breadth? That seems difficult to judge, too, particularly where one mountain begins and another leaves off. So please make clear to us in some way which specific mountain you're talking about. If this mountain is so different from all the other mountains in the region then it should be easily identifiable.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2011 8:22 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2011 10:29 PM Admin has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29473
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 575 of 657 (617717)
05-30-2011 10:05 PM


Returning to the points raised in the OP.
If we look at the Exodus Saga story itself, it is written as a series of short episodes, each of which creates a classic serial story, much like the old serials that were shown at the theater. The episodes were written so that each nights tale would present a crisis that could be resolved but leave the audience wanting another story the next night.

In the first episode they say say that the Israelites out number the Egyptians, but ends with the threat of all the male children being killed.

What will happen next time, tune in next week to find out.

This pattern is repeated through the whole 40 episodes.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 576 of 657 (617718)
05-30-2011 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by Admin
04-23-2011 8:53 AM


Re: Mt Sinai
Admin writes:

Buzsaw writes:

Admittedly, the largest mountain is not the only one appearing black topped. In my Message 506 I said:

quote:
As to the blackened mountain, there was some question about what gave the mountain the dark appearance. The fact remains that there is a dark topped mountain in the right secession of ducts corroborating my acclaimed evidences.

The reason I posted an interactive Google map was so you could scroll around and see that not only do most mountains in the region appear darker on top, there are also much darker mountains. Scroll around south east and notice how many mountains are as dark and darker on top. If you zoom in on each mountain you'll see that most of the difference in darkness is shade, not actual coloration.

What is your evidence that your chosen mountain's "blackened top" which is apparently mostly just shadows is much different from any of the other mountains in the region?

Also, we still have no idea which specific mountain in the Google map is your Mount Sinai. You referred to one of them as "the largest mountain," but from this satellite view it seems impossible to judge height. Are you going by breadth? That seems difficult to judge, too, particularly where one mountain begins and another leaves off. So please make clear to us in some way which specific mountain you're talking about. If this mountain is so different from all the other mountains in the region then it should be easily identifiable.

In your Message 7 of the direct/indirect evidence thread, you said this:

quote:
Evidence must be judged in context with other evidence, and it is this complex confluence and interaction of evidence that we assess.

In order to determine which mount is the highest you don't go by an aerial view, You determine that viewing from the ground.

It would be the mountain, at the bottom of which has the animals inscribed in the rocks.

I have stated that the mountain is more or less indirect evidence corroborating the more direct physical evidence, being the ones in my list of physical evidence.

As per your statement above, the mountain evidence should be judged in context with the other evidence, i.e corroborating other evidence. The more physical corroborating evidences that can be lined up, as I have done, the more credible the argument becomes.

In science you people allow for indirect evidence which defies logic such as QM and relativity, etc but you seem to be insisting that my evidence must be all direct.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Admin, posted 04-23-2011 8:53 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by Panda, posted 05-30-2011 10:49 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 578 by jar, posted 05-30-2011 10:56 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 579 by PaulK, posted 05-31-2011 1:38 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 580 by bluescat48, posted 05-31-2011 2:15 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 581 by Admin, posted 05-31-2011 6:07 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 588 by DrJones*, posted 05-31-2011 6:29 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1275 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 577 of 657 (617720)
05-30-2011 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by Buzsaw
05-30-2011 10:29 PM


Re: Mt Sinai
Why is the blackened mountain-top important/indicative/relevant if many of the mountains in that region have black tops?

Did the same thing happen to all the other mountain-tops to make them black?
If not, why are so many also black?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2011 10:29 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 29473
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 578 of 657 (617721)
05-30-2011 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by Buzsaw
05-30-2011 10:29 PM


Re: Mt Sinai
A short note on what constitutes evidence.

To give any credence to the Wyatt stories he would need to provide specific identification of his mountain of interest, even something as simple as the exact latitude and longitude of the mountain.

Otherwise he has no evidence.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2011 10:29 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 13233
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 579 of 657 (617738)
05-31-2011 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 576 by Buzsaw
05-30-2011 10:29 PM


Re: Mt Sinai
quote:

In order to determine which mount is the highest you don't go by an aerial view, You determine that viewing from the ground.

It would be the mountain, at the bottom of which has the animals inscribed in the rocks.


Please provide support for this claim (from a reliable source).

quote:

I have stated that the mountain is more or less indirect evidence corroborating the more direct physical evidence, being the ones in my list of physical evidence.

In other words, nothing that comes close to justifying the claim that this is Mt. Sinai. Especially when we consider that you don't have a viable crossing point for the Gulf of Aqaba.

quote:

As per your statement above, the mountain evidence should be judged in context with the other evidence, i.e corroborating other evidence. The more physical corroborating evidences that can be lined up, as I have done, the more credible the argument becomes.

You do realise that falsehoods don't count ? All you have is a few pieces of pathetically weak evidence which don't add up to anything like a convincing case.

quote:

In science you people allow for indirect evidence which defies logic such as QM and relativity, etc but you seem to be insisting that my evidence must be all direct.

That's wrong - in the piece you quote Percy wants to examine your claimed evidence, rather than demanding more.

The fact is, that if many mountains in the regions have dark tops then you cannot claim the fact that this mountain has a dark top is evidence that it is Mt. Sinai. We would have no reason to believe that the dark coloration on your preferred site is anything other than its natural colour which cannot support your claim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2011 10:29 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1752 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 580 of 657 (617740)
05-31-2011 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 576 by Buzsaw
05-30-2011 10:29 PM


Re: Mt Sinai
It would be the mountain, at the bottom of which has the animals inscribed in the rocks.

What has that to do with anything? So someone inscribed animals into the rock, that has been done in many places, proves nothing.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2011 10:29 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 581 of 657 (617751)
05-31-2011 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 576 by Buzsaw
05-30-2011 10:29 PM


Re: Mt Sinai
Hi Buz,

Your post had no evidence, only claims of evidence. You're still doing what I've been asking you not to do. I'm asking you to stop making claims that you have evidence and to start actually providing evidence. In your next post I want you to:

  • Identify in a Google satellite photograph which mountain in western Saudi Arabia is Mount Sinai, and describe how you identified it and chose it over other similar mountains in the region.

  • Describe the evidence you used to demonstrate that this same mountain has animals carved at its base where other mountains in the region do not.

Please do not post again to this thread until you can provide this evidence, or you're willing to drop this particular claim and move on to other Exodus evidence.

Edited by Admin, : Typo.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2011 10:29 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 582 of 657 (617777)
05-31-2011 10:47 AM


Re:Height Perspective.
quote:
In order to determine which mount is the highest you don't go by an aerial view, You determine that, viewing from the ground.

It would be the mountain, at the bottom of which has the animals inscribed in the rocks.


According to the Biblical record, that would be the mountain.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by Admin, posted 05-31-2011 11:19 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 586 by PaulK, posted 05-31-2011 6:00 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 583 of 657 (617784)
05-31-2011 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 582 by Buzsaw
05-31-2011 10:47 AM


Re: Re:Height Perspective.
Buzsaw writes:

According to the Biblical record, that would be the mountain.

You say you have natural evidence of this mountain. Could you maybe tell us which mountain and how you know it's *the* Mount Sinai, here's the map again:


View Larger Map


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2011 10:47 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2011 4:30 PM Admin has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 584 of 657 (617922)
05-31-2011 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 583 by Admin
05-31-2011 11:19 AM


Re: Re:Height Perspective.
Admin writes:

Buzsaw writes:

According to the Biblical record, that would be the mountain.

You say you have natural evidence of this mountain. Could you maybe tell us which mountain and how you know it's *the* Mount Sinai, here's the map again:

How many time do I have to say you can't determine height variances from the air? You need to be on the ground in order to get height perspective. Why am I required to expend so much time on this one of many corroborative evidences? I've told you how to determine which mountain relative to height and the hieroglyphics at it's base which have been shown a number of times in the Exodus threads.

I have no more to add about the mountain. I have other things to do. Let each judge for themselves as to my evidence. Like the other evidences, implicating the supernatural by the natural, I don't expect any secularist to admit to any of it. Perhaps there's some objective folks lurking who are un-biased enough to corroborate what I've posted and go, figure.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by Admin, posted 05-31-2011 11:19 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by Admin, posted 05-31-2011 5:01 PM Buzsaw has responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 585 of 657 (617940)
05-31-2011 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by Buzsaw
05-31-2011 4:30 PM


Re: Re:Height Perspective.
Hi Buz,

Let's be very clear about your evidence.

You believe that if one could enter that region of Saudi Arabia that Mount Sinai would be identifiable because it is the highest mountain, it has a blackened top unlike other mountains in the region, and it has animal carvings at its base unlike other mountains in the region.

But you have no material evidence that such a mountain exists in this region of Saudi Arabia.

If you agree that this summary is accurate then you're free to move on to the issues of other evidence.

If you disagree with this summary then please provide your material evidence.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2011 4:30 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2011 9:44 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
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