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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 631 of 657 (618742)
06-05-2011 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 626 by Percy
06-02-2011 8:30 AM


Re: Sandbar, etc.
Percy writes:

The first one we examined, a sandbar at Nuweiba, did not withstand scrutiny.

This has been typical all through this thread, Percy. You people simply wave off significant points of my arguments.

My position changed on the sandbar terminology after determining that that was the wrong word. I cited things like the sudden drop off and my explanation for that, etc

Of course it didn't withstand your scrutiny. None of it would ever withstand your scrutiny. To admit any of it would be to admit something supernatural or some credibility to the Genesis record. That's your biased opinion. Your bully pulpit allows you to become judge and jury, awarding yourself the judgment. .

Edited by Buzsaw, : Update title


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Percy, posted 06-02-2011 8:30 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Percy, posted 06-06-2011 8:15 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Bailey
Member (Idle past 1962 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 632 of 657 (618746)
06-05-2011 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by Portillo
06-05-2011 3:50 AM


In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Hello lil' port, hope all is well and welcome to the fray,
EvC's an interesting forum - hope you enjoy your stay ..

I guess it happened if you take the Bible as literal and factual history.

Can one responsibly assign a bible in the role of an accurate historical treatise?

If so, which canon best meets the requirements necessary to make such designations?

Not everything in the past will be able to be found as evidence, because some things like cities were completely destroyed or something like that.

Good point.

There also seems to be evidence certain narratives within variant bibles simply arent veracious, much less historic, hence the initial query.

In light of this, it appears not all stories relegated to the biblical past may be perceived evidently, and so, nor may evidence for them be found.

Or something like that ..

One Love


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Portillo, posted 06-05-2011 3:50 AM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by Portillo, posted 06-06-2011 4:33 AM Bailey has not yet responded

Portillo
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 633 of 657 (618782)
06-06-2011 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 632 by Bailey
06-05-2011 11:52 PM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
quote:
Hello lil' port, hope all is well and welcome to the fray,
EvC's an interesting forum - hope you enjoy your stay ..

Thank you very much.

quote:
Can one responsibly assign a bible in the role of an accurate historical treatise?

If so, which canon best meets the requirements necessary to make such designations?


Well I guess you have to take the Bible at face value. Alot of researchers believe what most ancient texts say, yet sometimes apply different standards to the biblical texts.

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Coragyps, posted 06-06-2011 6:53 AM Portillo has responded
 Message 635 by PaulK, posted 06-06-2011 7:45 AM Portillo has not yet responded

Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5295
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 634 of 657 (618791)
06-06-2011 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 633 by Portillo
06-06-2011 4:33 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Hi, Portillo! Welcome to EvC!

Alot of researchers believe what most ancient texts say, yet sometimes apply different standards to the biblical texts.

Do you have some examples? Take the Iliad, for example: most people that studied it in the 19th century viewed it as pure storytelling. Then, after Troy was excavated, opinion shifted to it being a mixture of fact and fable. No one since 1800 that I am aware of converted to the worship of Poseidon or Zeus because of reading it, though their power is pretty evident from the text.

The Bible, now, gives us some similar stories of battle and intrigue. But the "different standards" that are most commonly applied to these stories are to take them as absolute literal truth. Am I reading you correctly when I take it that you mean the opposite of that? Again, do you have examples?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by Portillo, posted 06-06-2011 4:33 AM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Portillo, posted 06-07-2011 4:10 AM Coragyps has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13311
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 635 of 657 (618794)
06-06-2011 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 633 by Portillo
06-06-2011 4:33 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
quote:

Well I guess you have to take the Bible at face value. Alot of researchers believe what most ancient texts say, yet sometimes apply different standards to the biblical texts.

I have to agree with Coragyps. This claim seems to be baseless.

However, to deal with your point, there is no good reason at all to treat all of the books of the Bible the same way. Exodus should be especially suspect for a number of reasons. The lack of a historical context within the book, the clearly legendary elements (the use of schematic ages for Moses is one) and the lack of supporting evidence from known history and archaeology simply puts the seal on it. To put it on the same level as -say - 2 Kings seems to be absurd.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by Portillo, posted 06-06-2011 4:33 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16170
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 636 of 657 (618795)
06-06-2011 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 631 by Buzsaw
06-05-2011 10:46 PM


Re: Sandbar, etc.
Hi Buz,

You originally claimed that the Jews crossed on a sandbar that was later washed away by a tsunami.

Now you claim that when you said sandbar you actually meant delta? You think a delta extended all the way across the Gulf of Aqaba, that the Jews crossed on the delta, and then most of the delta was later washed away by a tsunami?

Do you have evidence for any of this?

When we say that a claim has not stood up to scrutiny we mean that no evidence could be produced to support the claim. So here's what we have so far:

  • No evidence was produced that there was ever a sandbar or extended delta providing an avenue across the Gulf of Aqaba, nor is there any evidence of a tsunami that would have wiped away all evidence of a sandbar or delta.

  • No evidence was produced linking Jebel al Lawz to the Exodus.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Buzsaw, posted 06-05-2011 10:46 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2011 6:00 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10068
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 637 of 657 (618861)
06-06-2011 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by Percy
06-06-2011 8:15 AM


Re: Sandbar, etc.
Percy writes:

Now you claim that when you said sandbar you actually meant delta?

I believe the idea is that the crossing was on a bridge of sand, but that we shouldn't call that bridge a sandbar. The delta is supposed to be evidence of the sand, and the tsunami is a euphemism for Flood damage.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by Percy, posted 06-06-2011 8:15 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 638 of 657 (618920)
06-07-2011 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by Coragyps
06-06-2011 6:53 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Coragyps writes:

Do you have some examples? Take the Iliad, for example: most people that studied it in the 19th century viewed it as pure storytelling. Then, after Troy was excavated, opinion shifted to it being a mixture of fact and fable. No one since 1800 that I am aware of converted to the worship of Poseidon or Zeus because of reading it, though their power is pretty evident from the text.

The Bible, now, gives us some similar stories of battle and intrigue. But the "different standards" that are most commonly applied to these stories are to take them as absolute literal truth. Am I reading you correctly when I take it that you mean the opposite of that? Again, do you have examples?

Its clear from many books of the Bible that they are not mythology but history. Babylonian and Sumerian accounts describe the creation as the product of a conflict among finite gods. When one god is defeated and split in half, the River Euphrates flows from one eye and the Tigris from the other. Humanity is made of the blood of an evil god mixed with clay. These kind of stories are expected when an historical account becomes mythos.

How likely is the Genesis account to be derived from these accounts? The evidence supports the view that the biblical accounts turned into myths.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Coragyps, posted 06-06-2011 6:53 AM Coragyps has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by Coragyps, posted 06-07-2011 7:28 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 643 by deerbreh, posted 07-07-2011 12:08 PM Portillo has not yet responded

Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5295
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 639 of 657 (618936)
06-07-2011 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 638 by Portillo
06-07-2011 4:10 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
These kind of stories are expected when an historical account becomes mythos.

Totally unlike stories of snakes walking and talking to people, or of womwn turning into salt, or of people being eaten by fish and surviving three days inside them. Those are 100% historical-sounding, right? Do those things happen a lot where you live? They don't so much out here, and we have lots of snakes to attempt conversations with.

Yes, many of the books of the Bible purport to be history. Some of them actually appear to really be history, with variable degrees of accuracy. But, as you can find on various topics here at EvC, it's a pretty shaky excuse for history when there is no external evidence whatever for many of the things described. Where are the ruins of Solomon's great temple? Where did the Hebrews camp out for most of 40 years in the desert?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Portillo, posted 06-07-2011 4:10 AM Portillo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by Buzsaw, posted 06-07-2011 7:56 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 640 of 657 (618940)
06-07-2011 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 639 by Coragyps
06-07-2011 7:28 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Coragyps writes:

Where did the Hebrews camp out for most of 40 years in the desert?

That has been addressed in the thread. Most of their time was at Kadesh Barnea, i.e. Petra which has been occupied by pagan cultures since, erasing any signs of the Jews.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by Coragyps, posted 06-07-2011 7:28 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by Percy, posted 06-07-2011 8:11 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 642 by jar, posted 06-07-2011 8:59 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 16170
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 641 of 657 (618944)
06-07-2011 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Buzsaw
06-07-2011 7:56 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Buzsaw writes:

That has been addressed in the thread. Most of their time was at Kadesh Barnea, i.e. Petra which has been occupied by pagan cultures since, erasing any signs of the Jews.

We can add this to your list of claims for which you have no evidence. Since you claim that all signs of Jewish occupation at Petra have been erased, how could you have any evidence that they were ever there?

Buz, evidence isn't something you can think up that can't be disproven. Evidence is a tangible observation of something that actually exists. Things that actually happened leave evidence behind. Your job in this thread is to find some of that evidence and produce it here.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Buzsaw, posted 06-07-2011 7:56 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29622
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 642 of 657 (618963)
06-07-2011 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Buzsaw
06-07-2011 7:56 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Buzsaw writes:

Coragyps writes:

Where did the Hebrews camp out for most of 40 years in the desert?

That has been addressed in the thread. Most of their time was at Kadesh Barnea, i.e. Petra which has been occupied by pagan cultures since, erasing any signs of the Jews.

Evidence of that Buz or is this just another of your totally unsupported assertions?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Buzsaw, posted 06-07-2011 7:56 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 485 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 643 of 657 (622926)
07-07-2011 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Portillo
06-07-2011 4:10 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Its clear from many books of the Bible that they are not mythology but history. Babylonian and Sumerian accounts describe the creation as the product of a conflict among finite gods. When one god is defeated and split in half, the River Euphrates flows from one eye and the Tigris from the other. Humanity is made of the blood of an evil god mixed with clay. These kind of stories are expected when an historical account becomes mythos.

Actually the Babylonian and Genesis creation accounts have many similarities. Comparison here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/com_geba.htm

Also the Gilgamesh epic (Babylonian flood story) is very similar to the Noah story. Comparison here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/noah_com.htm

How likely is the Genesis account to be derived from these accounts? The evidence supports the view that the biblical accounts turned into myths.

That is what conservative Christian theologians say. Liberal Christian theologians say the exact opposite: that the Babylonian accounts predate the biblical accounts. The archeological data appear to support the liberals. See the above links.


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 Message 638 by Portillo, posted 06-07-2011 4:10 AM Portillo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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cigarshaped
Junior Member (Idle past 2236 days)
Posts: 5
From: Bracknell, UK
Joined: 07-08-2011


(1)
Message 644 of 657 (623305)
07-09-2011 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 643 by deerbreh
07-07-2011 12:08 PM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Having scanned a percentage of the 643 posts I am suprised if no other comparative documents than deerbreh's have been quoted in the debate. Correct me if I missed any.

In 1970 I devoured a book which explored the Exodus as part of a GLOBAL catastrophe. In it documents and documented legends, etc point to nations all around the world suffering similar events to the Egyptian plagues, followed by periods of intense darkness, famine and re-location.

There is a huge list from which I will quote a few instances:
Ex 7:20 "..all the water was changed into blood."
Ipuwer Papyrus: "The River is blood.."
Mayans: "..earth quaked, river water turned to blood.."

Ex 9:23 "..Lord sent thunder and 'hail' (Heb 'stones of barad' - meteorites) and lightning flashed down to the ground."
Ipuwer: "There was fire mingled with hail very grievous such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt"
".. trees destroyed, grain perished..like cutting flax.."
".gates and columns consumed by fire"

Ex 24:23-28 ". Pharoah's horse and chariots.."
Ipuwer: "His Majesty fought with the evil-doers in the whirlpool. His Majesty leapt into the place of the whirlpool."

And that's before I get onto pole reversal, prolonged darkness, ambrosia (manna = 'honey') and rivers of honey.

So something BIG definitely happened. So big, that geological changes could well have changed the face of the world. Hence our Red Sea crossing will be even more difficult to establish!


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Replies to this message:
 Message 645 by jar, posted 07-09-2011 11:34 AM cigarshaped has responded
 Message 646 by Theodoric, posted 07-09-2011 1:07 PM cigarshaped has not yet responded
 Message 647 by Percy, posted 07-09-2011 1:18 PM cigarshaped has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29622
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 645 of 657 (623318)
07-09-2011 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 644 by cigarshaped
07-09-2011 9:31 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
If you actually think that there is any real evidence in there please pick what you think is the best example so we can examine it.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by cigarshaped, posted 07-09-2011 9:31 AM cigarshaped has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by cigarshaped, posted 07-09-2011 1:51 PM jar has responded

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