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Author Topic:   Fine tuning: a discussion for the rest of us mortals
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 60 of 83 (318770)
06-07-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by cavediver
06-07-2006 12:51 PM


Re: off topic?
cavediver
Possibly, but this is not what the AP states. It does not talk in terms of probabilities, only necessities to life. It is about identifying those properties of the universe that have to be just so for us to exist
Are these proerties of the universe that need to be just so for us to exist also necessary in order for the universe to we live in to exist as well? If so, with vast regions of space so completely inhospitable to intelligent life { I would imagine being awful close to 100 %} that we exist strikes me as accidental and not planned.
The AP seems to be applicable only when we focus on the Earth and our intelligent life, otherwise it seems a moot point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by cavediver, posted 06-07-2006 12:51 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 62 of 83 (318780)
06-07-2006 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by cavediver
06-07-2006 1:46 PM


Re: off topic?
cavediver
The vast stretches of inhospitable space are just as necessary to our existence as the oxygen in our atmosphere
Then the is not fine tuned for life but that our vanishling tiny portion of it happens to be in a position where the factors that would prevent us from occuring are balanced just so.
This does not seems very anthropic to me but a lucky conincidence of fortune like an oasis in a desert.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by cavediver, posted 06-07-2006 1:46 PM cavediver has replied

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 Message 64 by cavediver, posted 06-07-2006 2:13 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 75 of 83 (319099)
06-08-2006 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by cavediver
06-07-2006 2:13 PM


Re: off topic?
cavediver
No, it is everything. Alpha and G are critical to life, and are universals through-out the universe. They dictate whether stars are possible, or molecules. There is plenty of fine-tuning before we even get to the stage of asking what is needed to get a decent planet somewhere.
But the universe has to come out in some way or other and do we know that other conditions would allow for intelligent life other than our own? If all the conditions up to life but short of intelligence were in place then would the fine tuning arguement still hold?
As Victor Stegner put it "The universe is not fine tuned for humanity. Humanity is fine tuned for the universe."
Why does alpha have its value? If it did not, there would be no observers - fine tuned. What has caused alpha to take this value? We don't know... yet.
Perhaps you could outline the arguements pro and con in the cosmological community? I would find this fascinating.

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