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Author Topic:   High-Fructose Corn Syrup - the Controversy
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3803 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 3 of 47 (581214)
09-14-2010 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
09-14-2010 1:32 PM


HFCS and Metabolics
I understood that the metabolic pathways were different for the two. Fructose is metabolized fully in the liver while for glucose it is only 20%. Those fatty acids created by fructose in the liver accumulate in your liver. The reason for the fat gain seen in rats might be because the calories stored by consuming fructose is much greater (30%) versus glucose which is (<1%).
I'm quite a bit rusty on the chemistry but I'll take a look at my old organic chemistry books and see if I can find anything to clarify.
P.S. I had read an article on BBC that indicated Cancer cells use Fructose more efficiently, or something to that effect.

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DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3803 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 26 of 47 (587347)
10-18-2010 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Coragyps
10-18-2010 4:05 AM


And what genetic modifications are going to sneak into syrup from GM corn, exactly?
The issue for me at least is the fact that the BT toxin has been found in streams some distance from the GM crops. It appears that the organic detritus left after harvesting is decomposing in runoff waters. Hoocoodanode?
Iirc they are lookiong into doing some research into what effects the BT toxin has on insect populations in these streams and other riparian ecosystems.
HFCS is getting demonized when it is not very different from sucrose.
I think the problem is that HFCS, like that found in soft drinks, is in such a large amount (the fructose found in fruits is at small enough amounts that the liver is able to matabolize it) that the liver starts storing fats that accumulate in the liver and inhibit proper insulin production and increase LDL in the blood.
Because sucrose is made up of both glucose and fructose less overall must be processed by the liver.

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 Message 25 by Coragyps, posted 10-18-2010 4:05 AM Coragyps has not replied

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 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2010 1:47 PM DBlevins has replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3803 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 32 of 47 (587587)
10-19-2010 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
10-18-2010 1:47 PM


The Bt "toxin" is just a protein, and it's harmful only to lepidopterans and beetle larva, and only in the basic pH of their foregut.
Bt is used to also control mosquito populations. Farmers have to be careful to use the particular Bt toxin protein specific to the insect they are trying to control, otherwise they could harm beneficial species. So, no I don't agree with your assetion that it is only harmful to lepidopterans and beetle larvae.
Should we worry about the possible unintended poisoning of targetted species outside of the farm? Is there such a possible effect?
Cry1Bb isn't a bioaccumulating compound, it's just a protein. Proteins out in the natural world hydrolyze rapidly, or are scavenged by microflora. The safety and low ecological impact of Bt toxin is why it's one of the pesticides that organic farmers can spray.
Would you consider 6 months as low persistance?
While I applaud the attempt at creating pesticides that are low impact, with low-toxicity to non-targetted species and have a small to negligable impact beyond their application, I champion the continued oversight of any product or design which has the potential for negative consequences.
That's right - organic farmers spray Bt "toxin" all over their crops. But you think the major source of Bt in runoff and streams is GMO corn. Once again, the conventional farmer is slammed for consequences that organic farming exacerbates. Hoocoodanode indeed?
According to this Study the streams tested had stream channels that were 500m from maize fields and that roughly 91% of Indiana's miles of streams were within 500m of where maize fields had been planted.
I'm not out to demonize the use of Bt in pesticides or our crops, but I definitely care about the possible negative consequences of their use. I think a high priority item for study should be the impact of the Bt protein in streams and the possiblility of the introduction of GM genes into native species.
I continue to believe that the food-scare hysteria surrounding fructose and HFCS is founded on no sound science, and it's for this reason - if there were some sound science counterindicating HFCS, food-scare proponents would be able to agree on what was bad about it.
Continuing my research into HFCS leads me to agree with you that any demonization of HFCS should not be based on its supposed difference with sucrose. (Is 5% more fructose enough to make HFCS so much more dangerous than sucrose? It doesn't appear to be so.)
The increase in the percentage of foods that have sugar in their ingredients should be the focus of poeples ire and not the little difference between sucrose and HFCS.
Edited by DBlevins, : No reason given.
Edited by DBlevins, : whats up with copying a text and having it copy the whole field?

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 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2010 1:47 PM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2010 5:01 PM DBlevins has replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3803 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 36 of 47 (587603)
10-19-2010 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
10-19-2010 5:01 PM


Yes, but toxicity exposure is going to be limited to species that eat Bt crops or live in water where the toxin is present, right? We're not talking about something like a PCB that accumulates its way up the food chain.
Just because it only effects a limited set of species doesn't mean we should not be concerned, right? If the effect of Bt is creating an imbalance in off-the-farm ecosystems by killing a significant number of the targetted species I have to be concerned.
Yes, I would.
What is the impact on species of a toxin that is constantly being put into the system and one that is persistent? My point being that 6-months is less time than the next cycle of planting which makes it for all intents and purposes persistent.
Bt is a soil-dwelling organism. It's not like it's something we invented. Bacillus thuringiensis is all over the damn place; is this really the first time it's ever been in a stream? If we find it in a stream do we know for sure it's from Bt crops? I find all of that very hard to believe.
Did you read the study?
Edited by DBlevins, : No reason given.

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 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2010 5:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2010 6:44 PM DBlevins has replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3803 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 40 of 47 (587617)
10-19-2010 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by crashfrog
10-19-2010 6:44 PM


I'd turn it around and ask - if it only affects a limited number of species, how concerned should we be?
Perhaps I am not being clear or your not seeing the forest for the trees.
It doesn't matter whether it effects a limited number of species because we have no idea of the effect that significantly reducing the population of those species could have on the scosystem as a whole.
Again, in case I wasn't clear: I am not saying that this is happening, but it definitely should be a concern and studied and not written off as fear-mongering.
Why do you think it's creating an "imbalance"?
I said 'If'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2010 6:44 PM crashfrog has replied

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DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3803 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 46 of 47 (587959)
10-21-2010 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by crashfrog
10-20-2010 11:11 PM


Fructose and consumption
Sorry if I am getting in the middle of the debate here.
Since fructose is sweeter than sucrose (almost twice as sweet, in fact) it might very well mean a decrease in the consumption of both fructose and glucose.
I thought that fructose did not have an effect on the desire for more food while glucose did have a suppressing effect on food consumption.
If this has already been cleared up then feel free to ignore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 10-20-2010 11:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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