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Author Topic:   Are Point Mutations problematic for ToE?
seanfhear
Junior Member (Idle past 4593 days)
Posts: 23
From: California
Joined: 09-28-2010


Message 1 of 36 (584007)
09-29-2010 7:03 PM


In an AIG DVD called The Code of Life Dr. Georgia Purdom said that all point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it.
Is this true and does it pose any problem for evolution?
Though my last formal biology class was over 45 years ago, I have tried to keep up with the most rudimentary genetic principles. The topic is actually a question I would like to see debated but would be much too ignorant to participate except to ask questions.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."
Voltaire

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Message 2 of 36 (584014)
09-29-2010 8:06 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Are Point Mutations problematic for ToE? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 36 (584022)
09-29-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by seanfhear
09-29-2010 7:03 PM


Evolution is a Directionless Process
Hello, seanfhear, and welcome!
In an AIG DVD called The Code of Life Dr. Georgia Purdom said that all point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it.
Whether or not Purdom's claims are true, they say nothing about the reality of evolution. Evolution does not make claims about information increasing or decreasing or anything like that.
Evolution is about change. Plain and simple. The 'direction'more or less, good or badof the change is a subjective opinionated matter, not one representative of any reality.
I do not see this going far, but it might get picked up by some Creos who will run with it, prompting the input of folk who actually know what they are talking about.
I, like you, am hope to learn a lot from this if it goes on.
Jon

"Can we say the chair on the cat, for example? Or the basket in the person? No, we can't..." - Harriet J. Ottenheimer
"Dim bulbs save on energy..." - jar

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16113
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(3)
Message 4 of 36 (584026)
09-29-2010 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by seanfhear
09-29-2010 7:03 PM


I don't suppose she explained how she was quantifying "genetic information"?
If not, it seems to be neither true nor false but simply meaningless.
However, it is possible to dispute such a vague proposition. Consider that under any meaningful definition of "genetic information" it must be a variable of state --- that is, two identical genomes must have the same amount of genetic information.
Very well then. Suppose that at a certain locus a single nucleotide substitution takes place; let us say a change from A to T. Let us suppose that Purdom is right about this mutation, and that it decreases the "genetic information" of the genome.
Then it is clear, is it not, that the opposite mutation (i.e. at the same locus, and from T to A) must necessarily increase "genetic information".
And in general, the proposition that some mutations decrease "genetic information" implies that others must be able to increase it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Percy
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Message 5 of 36 (584027)
09-29-2010 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by seanfhear
09-29-2010 7:03 PM


Here's what I think is the strongest argument against point mutations only being able to decrease information.
We start by assuming that the premise that point mutations can only decrease information is true. Take as an example this short segment of DNA:
...TACGCC...
A random mutation occurs in this segment of DNA with the fourth nucleotide changing from G to T, decreasing the amount of information:
...TACTCC...
Now some number of generations later another random mutation occurs in the exact same spot with T changing to G, again decreasing the amount of information:
...TACGCC...
We know that the third sequence must have less information than the first because by the law of transitivity if the second sequence has less information than the first, and the third has less than the second, then the third sequence must contain less information than the first. But the first and third sequences are identical and must therefore contain an identical amount of information, so it is obviously impossible for the third sequence to contain less information than the first, and so by the law of contradiction the starting premise that point mutations can only decrease information must be false.
--Percy

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 6 of 36 (584028)
09-29-2010 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
09-29-2010 8:41 PM


There's a funny echo in here ...

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Nij
Member (Idle past 4890 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 7 of 36 (584029)
09-29-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by seanfhear
09-29-2010 7:03 PM


Welcome to EvC, sean.
In an AIG DVD called The Code of Life Dr. Georgia Purdom said that all point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it.
AIG -- like most creationist organisations -- is a Christian propaganda vessel, not a scientific institution. I would basically ignore anything they say about evolution or cosmology as a rule of thumb, because they simply don't know what they are talking about.
Fortunately, you've happened across a rather more informed group here and I'm sure many will pop in to discuss the question you raised (before subsequently going off tangentially on barely related points )
But anyway, to topic at hand:
Is this true and does it pose any problem for evolution?
No, it is not true. More later.
Whether or not it would pose a problem is a debatable issue, but effectively a pointless one.
So about the issue of whether mutations cannot increase information.
Say generation 1 of a population has as part of their genetic makeup a string alpha of the bases GACGATGC.
Then some descendants of generation 2 inherit this string, but with mutations. The rest of the descendants don't get mutations there and have the original string.
In their genes are now the strings are say, beta GACTTTGC and gamma GACGATAC (mutated parts are in bold; labels of strings are italicised).
Now, there may be more mutations to this string in the next descendants, or the descendants may simply inherit the string their parents in generation 2 had.
Your only possible string before these mutations was alpha, but now you have the possible strings alpha and beta and gamma. Which set contains more options, and hence more information?
Hint: it's not what AIG would have said.
*Bear in mind that this is a very simple demonstration. It does not factor in the possible indels (which would also alter the amount of "information") nor does it account for the process of turning DNA into protein (where using different bases might make no difference anyway or could substantially change the protein).

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 8 of 36 (584030)
09-29-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by seanfhear
09-29-2010 7:03 PM


Not having watched the video, I will have to ask how Dr Purdom defines "information," genetic or otherwise. But I can present Ritz, et al., Science v. 294 pp 158-160 (2001) where they document a (spontaneously occurring) three-base insertion in DNA that changes a peroxiredoxin enzyme into a disulfide reductase. It sort of sounds like more "information" to me, and it lets the bacteria that have it grow under the experimental conditions reported.
http://scbtrack.wfu.edu/Poole-files/Ritz_et_al_Science.pdf
I have others, and I'm not a biologist, nor play one on TV.

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seanfhear
Junior Member (Idle past 4593 days)
Posts: 23
From: California
Joined: 09-28-2010


Message 9 of 36 (584031)
09-29-2010 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Adequate
09-29-2010 8:38 PM


Sounds reasonable from my limited exposure to genetics. I guess what baffled me was that I don’t have a layman’s definition of point mutation.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."
Voltaire

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 10 of 36 (584033)
09-29-2010 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
09-29-2010 8:43 PM


How About A Trifecta Echo
To put gene substitution in a less mathematical sense for the math challenged (regardless of how simple the concept is presented in a few previous posts) how about a real life example?
Consider the spotted moth in England. Evolution favored lighter varieties before burning coal and prior to the time it covered all trees in soot. Then after burning a lot of coal it favors darker varieties to blend in with the soot covered trees. Suddenly environmental regulation reduces the burning of coal and the moths respond to their environmental stress by becoming lighter once again.
Where is the loss of genetic information? If you take away, then add the same back, how is that a loss?
(not original, someone here mentioned that very thing a few years back - please feel free to step up so I may give you full credit)
Also if the experiment is continued for an infinite amount of time would that result in the moths eventually having no genetic information under the always loss scenario. How would they exist with no genes?
Admittedly less directly mathematical but a reasonable real-life example.
Edited by anglagard, : Had to change the last two to a few previous, people here must be drinking red bull mixed with vodka as the young are wont to do.
Edited by anglagard, : get rid of extraneous 'last two,' damn you people are fast once you find a bone

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

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seanfhear
Junior Member (Idle past 4593 days)
Posts: 23
From: California
Joined: 09-28-2010


Message 11 of 36 (584034)
09-29-2010 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coragyps
09-29-2010 9:02 PM


I’ve heard her say, in a conversation with Michael Shermer that she limits her research to microbial genetics. Is that significant in this discussion?

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."
Voltaire

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seanfhear
Junior Member (Idle past 4593 days)
Posts: 23
From: California
Joined: 09-28-2010


Message 12 of 36 (584039)
09-29-2010 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by anglagard
09-29-2010 9:07 PM


Re: How About A Trifecta Echo
I see what you mean by a continueing loss of genetic information. Even if the process went on for a fairly short period of time I guess all you would end up with is an organism with some serious disabilities.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."
Voltaire

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 36 (584041)
09-29-2010 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by seanfhear
09-29-2010 9:03 PM


I guess what baffled me was that I don’t have a layman’s definition of point mutation.
That usually refers to a base pair substitution, as opposed to an insertion (one additional base pair) or a deletion (the loss of a base pair.)

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 14 of 36 (584043)
09-29-2010 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by seanfhear
09-29-2010 7:03 PM


Not that I disagree with anything anyone else has said here, but I've got a different take on it.
Evolution occurs in populations, not individuals. Assume a population that is homogeneous at a particular locus. Next, assume one or more individuals in the next population exhibit a mutation at that locus. Obviously the total "genetic information" in the population will increase, regardless of whether the mutation itself increases or decreases the amount of "genetic information" because the daughter population will include the original allele plus the new allele. This will not be the case only in the extraordinarily unlikely event that all individuals in the daughter population exhibit the exact same mutation.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

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seanfhear
Junior Member (Idle past 4593 days)
Posts: 23
From: California
Joined: 09-28-2010


Message 15 of 36 (584046)
09-29-2010 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by subbie
09-29-2010 10:23 PM


It’s beginning to sound like the point mutations issue would be more of a confirmation for evolution than a problem. Does that sound reasonable?

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."
Voltaire

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