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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
jar
Member
Posts: 29815
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 256 of 318 (675849)
10-16-2012 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
10-16-2012 2:13 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
I think I understand it but also disagree totally with your assertion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 10-16-2012 2:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Phat, posted 10-16-2012 2:30 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10250
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 257 of 318 (675852)
10-16-2012 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by jar
10-16-2012 2:21 PM


Three Topics -One God -Zero Evidence?
We have three "God" topics in high rotation, chiefly because I like talking about such things. I have to discipline myself, however, and sort the data as to which topic should be addressed by what specific criteria.

jar writes:

I think I understand it but also disagree totally with your assertion.

That's expected and acceptable.

I would argue that in any philosophical discussion, people learn more from disagreement than they do from agreement. Buzsaw always talks about the "sheeple" and yet talks reverently of the Shepherd (or whom he defines as the Shepherd.) You and he always disagree, but I would argue that he has learned more from you having disagreed with him than it would have been had you agreed. Same with me. You and I go way back. And then there is our friend from across the pond...Mr. Straggler!

Do you agree with my assertion that GOD (by definitional consensus) is desiring communion with humans or is aware of our minds, wills, and emotions so as to be familiar with us or would you argue that definitional consensus has not yet been reached?

I would argue the latter, seeing that if GOD exists then not enough information has been established to even form a full definition, much less a consensus. (apologies to Jesus, whom makes communion a possibility)

And no, I cannot define God. The God whom I would want has the following characteristics.

  • Understands the feelings of every living thing that possesses feelings.
  • Not at all jealous, though hopefully protective...like a good parent who runs behind the bicycle once the training wheels come off in case of a need to catch a falling child.

  • Creator of all seen and unseen, (this still allows for natural observable processes like evolution and various cosmological theoretics.)

  • Desires communion with humans when we become capable of such an event...which we are not yet ready.

    Edited by Phat, : changed subtitle

    Edited by Phat, : changed thrust of argument/assertion with the understanding that I might be wrong.

    Edited by Phat, : added


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 256 by jar, posted 10-16-2012 2:21 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

      
  • Straggler
    Member (Idle past 0 days)
    Posts: 10198
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 258 of 318 (675991)
    10-18-2012 8:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 253 by jar
    10-16-2012 1:48 PM


    Re: What Is GOD?
    When you assert that 'GOD is supernatural' you have absolutely no idea at all what you mean do you?

    It is (to use your phrase) a word salad in the most literal sense. Just a combination of definition-less words to which people can apply whatever meaning they are humanly-comfortable with.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 253 by jar, posted 10-16-2012 1:48 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 260 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 9:56 AM Straggler has responded

      
    Straggler
    Member (Idle past 0 days)
    Posts: 10198
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 259 of 318 (675993)
    10-18-2012 8:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
    10-16-2012 2:10 PM


    BLOP is hubbuluteral
    If the terms "GOD" and "supernatural" are literally definitionless then saying something like "GOD is supernatural" has no more meaning than saying "BLOP is hubbuluteral".

    So I put it to you that - BLOP is hubbuluteral.

    What do you think about that?

    Phat writes:

    If concept X is devoid of attribute and definition, (in which case the topic would be Can You Define X) we then have a discussion which can go several ways.

    If it has no meaning then it can't go anywhere. It's like saying BLOP is hubbuluteral. It's meaningless incoherent nonsense.

    Phat writes:

    If discussing it with a proponent of X...

    How can one be a proponent of X unless they have an idea of what X is? I put it to you that: BLOP is hubbuluteral. I propose this. I am a proponent of this statement.

    What is your response?

    Phat writes:

    ...one who wishes X to have a definition

    X either has a definition of it doesn't. Which is it? Is X more defined than BLOP?

    Phat writes:

    ...;we can prove to them that X has no definition

    How do you prove something has no definition?

    Phat writes:

    ..but even by discussing X, we have given it an attribute...namely a proposal for X to exist or a proposal for x not to exist.

    It doesn't even make any sense to ask if X exists unless X is defined as something which can exist. So I ask you - Does BLOP exist?

    Phat writes:

    Thus, IF X exists is a valid premise, no?

    If X is literally definitionless then asking if X exists is no different to asking if BLOP exists.

    Phat writes:

    Additionally, you may see no point to discussing concept X, yet jar or I may in fact see a point to discussing it.

    The two of you are labelling X=GOD and imbuing this supposedly definitionless and attributeless thing with all sorts of shared cultural characteristsics that by any conventional definition qualify it as a 'god'.

    Only when implicitly defined in this way does talking about it make any sense whatsoever.

    But when confronted with the flaws in this you both retreat back to the definitionless, attributeless concept and start speaking gibberish that is equivalent to discussing if BLOP exists or if BLOP is hubbuluteral.

    Take away the shared cultural meaning implict in the terms "GOD" and "supernatural" and any conversation using these terms becomes utterly meaningless.

    Phat writes:

    Further, since all three of us are in this discussion, as well as others, the idea that it is moot to discuss GOD seems irrelevant.

    If the terms "GOD" and "supernatural" are literally definitionless then saying something like "GOD is supernatural" has no more meaning than saying "BLOP is hubbuluteral".

    So I put it to you that - BLOP is hubbuluteral. What is your response?

    Of course the reason we can talk about GOD in a thread that asks 'Can you Define God?" is because this term GOD you use has all sorts of godly connotations and meaning that are implicit regardless of how much you and jar insist otherwise.

    The problem you have is that as soon as you take away this implicit meaning you literally might as well be talking about BLOP.

    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 254 by Phat, posted 10-16-2012 2:10 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 265 by Phat, posted 10-18-2012 11:27 AM Straggler has responded
     Message 304 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 11:56 AM Straggler has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29815
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 260 of 318 (675999)
    10-18-2012 9:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 258 by Straggler
    10-18-2012 8:10 AM


    Re: What Is GOD?
    You are getting closer, maybe almost there.

    As I have said in the past and will gladly repeat yet again, I am human and live in this universe and can experience those natural things that exist within this universe.

    The supernatural, if it exists, would be something other than natural.

    But since I am human and I do live in the natural world, I see no way to identify anything that really was supernatural. About the best I could do is say "I see no natural way to explain that."

    I am a theist, a Christian Theist. I worship the Christian God even though I understand it is not GOD but rather the best caricature, the best model, the best map I can find to be the guide for my ethical and social behavior.

    You are kinda correct when you say "When you assert that 'GOD is supernatural' you have absolutely no idea at all what you mean do you?"

    I don't and I have said that repeatedly. Both GOD and anything that is really supernatural will be something other than natural and as a human living in what we call the natural world, I really don't know what anything supernatural would be.

    And that is the point of the nuance between GOD, God(s) and god(s).


    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 258 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 8:10 AM Straggler has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 261 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 10:17 AM jar has responded

      
    Straggler
    Member (Idle past 0 days)
    Posts: 10198
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 261 of 318 (676000)
    10-18-2012 10:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 260 by jar
    10-18-2012 9:56 AM


    Re: What Is GOD?
    Is GOD supernatural?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 260 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 9:56 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 262 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 10:23 AM Straggler has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29815
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 262 of 318 (676001)
    10-18-2012 10:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 261 by Straggler
    10-18-2012 10:17 AM


    Re: What Is GOD?
    Again, let me repeat.

    GOD, if GOD exists will be supernatural.


    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 261 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 10:17 AM Straggler has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 263 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 10:25 AM jar has responded

      
    Straggler
    Member (Idle past 0 days)
    Posts: 10198
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 263 of 318 (676003)
    10-18-2012 10:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 262 by jar
    10-18-2012 10:23 AM


    Re: What Is GOD?
    jar writes:

    GOD, if GOD exists will be supernatural.

    How do you know this?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 262 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 10:23 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 264 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 10:42 AM Straggler has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29815
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 264 of 318 (676005)
    10-18-2012 10:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 263 by Straggler
    10-18-2012 10:25 AM


    Re: What Is GOD?
    And I've answered that before but I'm willing to try again.

    I do not KNOW that, I believe that.

    Since I know no way that I could ever test, determine or define something that really is supernatural as long as I am simply a human living in the natural world, I see no way to ever know anything about the supernatural as long as I am simply a human living in the natural world.


    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 263 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 10:25 AM Straggler has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 266 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 11:29 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10250
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 265 of 318 (676012)
    10-18-2012 11:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 259 by Straggler
    10-18-2012 8:36 AM


    Re: BLOP is hubbuluteral
    straggler writes:

    So I put it to you that - BLOP is hubbuluteral. What is your response?

    Start a thread on it.

    Straggler writes:

    Of course the reason we can talk about GOD in a thread that asks 'Can you Define God?" is because this term GOD you use has all sorts of godly connotations and meaning that are implicit regardless of how much you and jar insist otherwise.

    The reason we can talk about GOD,BLOP,or X is that one of us put it out there.

    The problem you have is that as soon as you take away this implicit meaning you literally might as well be talking about BLOP.
    So does this mean that the Final answer is that NO, we cannot define GOD?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 259 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 8:36 AM Straggler has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 270 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 11:50 AM Phat has responded

      
    Straggler
    Member (Idle past 0 days)
    Posts: 10198
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 266 of 318 (676013)
    10-18-2012 11:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 264 by jar
    10-18-2012 10:42 AM


    Re: What Is GOD?
    Lots of other people believe that their god is genuinely supernatural too.

    jar writes:

    I do not KNOW that, I believe that.

    It would help if you stopped asserting your irrational beliefs as if they were facts.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 264 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 10:42 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 267 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 11:31 AM Straggler has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29815
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 267 of 318 (676014)
    10-18-2012 11:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 266 by Straggler
    10-18-2012 11:29 AM


    Re: What Is GOD?
    Sorry you are still having problems with comprehension.

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 266 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 11:29 AM Straggler has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 268 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 11:41 AM jar has responded

      
    Straggler
    Member (Idle past 0 days)
    Posts: 10198
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 268 of 318 (676016)
    10-18-2012 11:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 267 by jar
    10-18-2012 11:31 AM


    Re: What Is GOD?
    Summary: GOD, and GOD alone, IS supernatural. Because jar says so.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 267 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 11:31 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 269 by Phat, posted 10-18-2012 11:46 AM Straggler has responded
     Message 274 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 11:59 AM Straggler has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10250
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 269 of 318 (676018)
    10-18-2012 11:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 268 by Straggler
    10-18-2012 11:41 AM


    Re: What Is GOD?
    Summary: GOD, and GOD alone, IS supernatural. Because jar says so.

    Summary: BLOP and BLOP alone IS hubuluteral. Because it too was put forth.

    I propose X. Any conclusions, objections or definitions?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 268 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 11:41 AM Straggler has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 271 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 11:51 AM Phat has responded

      
    Straggler
    Member (Idle past 0 days)
    Posts: 10198
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 270 of 318 (676020)
    10-18-2012 11:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
    10-18-2012 11:27 AM


    Re: BLOP is hubbuluteral
    Phat writes:

    Start a thread on it.

    But we have this one.

    Phat writes:

    The reason we can talk about GOD,BLOP,or X is that one of us put it out there.

    Put what out there? A combination of letters that literally has no conceptual definition or meaning? Something which is literally meaningless.

    Phat writes:

    So does this mean that the Final answer is that NO, we cannot define GOD?

    The final conclusion is that in the absence of any conceptual definition or meaning any use of the term GOD is incoherent and lacking in cogency. Stating belief in a non-concept is just absurd. The only sane response to such a thing is ignosticism.

    However when people use this term they are usually implicitly referring to something that is a supernatural, conscious being that is responsible for the creation or overseeing of some aspect of reality. Something like the following dictionary definition:

    quote:
    1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a supernatural being, who is worshipped as the controller of some part of the universe or some aspect of life in the world or is the personification of some force Related adj divine

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 265 by Phat, posted 10-18-2012 11:27 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 272 by Phat, posted 10-18-2012 11:54 AM Straggler has not yet responded

      
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