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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
Straggler
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 286 of 318 (676184)
10-20-2012 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by jar
10-20-2012 10:00 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
jar writes:

I agree that many people believe many things are supernatural, but I also see no way while I am simply a human living in this natural world to actually determine if something really is supernatural.

A GOD, if a GOD exists, would really be supernatural.

Are you stating this as a fact or a belief?

jar writes:

Other things might also really be supernatural.

I believe that demons, if demons as popularly conceived exist, would be supernatural.

Am I wrong?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:00 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:23 AM Straggler has responded
 Message 292 by Phat, posted 10-21-2012 10:19 AM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29821
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 287 of 318 (676185)
10-20-2012 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Straggler
10-20-2012 10:13 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
I will try yet again.

Since I know of no way to test, describe, verify that something really is supernatural, I cannot state for a fact that anything is supernatural.

Demons, if demons existed, would be supernatural.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2012 10:13 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2012 10:26 AM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 288 of 318 (676186)
10-20-2012 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by jar
10-20-2012 10:23 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
I also believe that Thor, if Thor as popularly conceived existed, would be supernatural.

Am I wrong?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:23 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:36 AM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29821
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 289 of 318 (676187)
10-20-2012 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Straggler
10-20-2012 10:26 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
You are probably wrong.

That is based on looking at the attributes, descriptions and characteristics asserted for Thor.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2012 10:26 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2012 10:53 AM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 290 of 318 (676188)
10-20-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by jar
10-20-2012 10:36 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
So what is it that makes demons supernatural but Thor not?

What attributes does one possess that the other doesn't such that one qualifies as supernatural (if it exists) but the other doesn't (if it exists)?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:36 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 11:09 AM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29821
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 291 of 318 (676191)
10-20-2012 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Straggler
10-20-2012 10:53 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
Well, demons is a super vague term and so we really don't have a clue what it might be.

Thor though is pretty specific and we can look at those attributes and determine that they either are not supernatural or do not exist. Asgard and Midgard do not exist, thunder and lightning have real natural causes, the three worlds and nine nations of Norse mythology do not exist but can be seen to be related to actual areas of the world of the period when the mythos was developing.

We can also see the evolution of Norse mythology as Christianity was introduced into the folk lore and population.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2012 10:53 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 2:59 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10255
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 292 of 318 (676270)
10-21-2012 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Straggler
10-20-2012 10:13 AM


Clarification
jar writes:

I agree that many people believe many things are supernatural, but I also see no way while I am simply a human living in this natural world to actually determine if something really is supernatural.

True, since by definition, supernatural is "of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe". there is no way we can ever determine these types of things. Does that make the very word theoretical?

A GOD, if a GOD exists, would really be supernatural.
While I agree with this statement, perhaps some people imagine their God to be quite natural, similar to Barbara Eden on I dream of Jeannie

Straggler writes:

Are you stating this as a fact or a belief?

Do you mean you, jar? Or you, Phat? Or perhaps you think that "you" is inclusive.

jar writes:

Other things might also really be supernatural.

Can we list anything now known as a tangible fact that is by definition supernatural?

Straggler writes:

I believe that demons, if demons as popularly conceived exist, would be supernatural.

Am I wrong?

No. You are entitled to exclusive beliefs. Beliefs by definition cannot be inclusive.

hmmmm. this is getting funny!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2012 10:13 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:02 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 293 of 318 (676394)
10-22-2012 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by jar
10-20-2012 11:09 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
jar writes:

Well, demons is a super vague term and so we really don't have a clue what it might be.

So now the criteria you are applying to judge if something is supernatural or not is ambiguity?

I also believe that Allah, if Allah exists, would be supernatural.

Am I wrong?

I also believe that Voldermort, if Voldermort as described by JK. Rowling actually existed (I'll grant you this isn't likely - but IF), would be supernatural.

Am I wrong?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 11:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 10-22-2012 3:26 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 294 of 318 (676396)
10-22-2012 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Phat
10-21-2012 10:19 AM


Re: Clarification
Straggler writes:

I believe that demons, if demons as popularly conceived exist, would be supernatural. Am I wrong?

Phat writes:

No. You are entitled to exclusive beliefs. Beliefs by definition cannot be inclusive.

If I were to believe that you are supernatural Phat - Would I be wrong?

Beliefs are not the be-all-and-end-all of reality. In fact they have very little effect at all....

Phat writes:

hmmmm. this is getting funny!

Dude it's hilarious!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Phat, posted 10-21-2012 10:19 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29821
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 295 of 318 (676404)
10-22-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Straggler
10-22-2012 2:59 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
No, that is not the criteria I am applying.

Given additional details we can test something to determine that it is not supernatural.

When you mention Voldemort we do have additional details; for example we know Voldemort is just a fictional character and so is most definitely not supernatural.

Allah is far more ambiguous and so we have less details and can say almost nothing about Allah. There is the belief that Allah was the Creator and that Allah is the Yahweh character from the Hebrew Books and the final judge of all people. That's about it though.

I would place Allah as well as the various iterations of the Hebrew Yahweh as Gods, something almost certain not to exist. Again, we know the source for these characters and can watch the evolution of the descriptions over time. But both Allah and Yahweh are useful creations, attempts to describe what really cannot be described.

I have a very high degree of confidence that they are both simply human constructs just like the Christian God.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 2:59 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:46 PM jar has responded
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 10-23-2012 10:09 AM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 296 of 318 (676412)
10-22-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by jar
10-22-2012 3:26 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
As an atheist and non-supernaturalist it goes almost without saying that I think that Allah and Voldermort and demons and GOD are all most likely human constructs rather than real beings.

But that is completely beside the point because we have already qualified the question with "IF they exist".

So I put it you again:

I believe that Allah, if Allah exists, would be supernatural.

Am I wrong?

I believe that Voldermort, if Voldermort as described by JK. Rowling actually exists, would be supernatural.

Am I wrong?

I don't think either exist. But I am asking you IF they did exist would they be supernatural?

Try not to conflate the question of existnce with the question of supernaturality.

jar writes:

I have a very high degree of confidence that they are both simply human constructs just like the Christian God.

And thus they are not supernatural in your eyes.

jar writes:

Demons, if demons existed, would be supernatural.

How confident are you about the existence of demons?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 10-22-2012 3:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by jar, posted 10-22-2012 4:04 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29821
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 297 of 318 (676421)
10-22-2012 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Straggler
10-22-2012 3:46 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
And I have answered.

We know Voldemort does not exist.

If I encountered someone in real life that had the attributes of the character I would NOT say it was supernatural.

I can't say anything about Allah since you provide no information about the entity you call Allah, and so can only repeat what I have said.

We know the origin of the stories about Allah and so I can say with a very high degree of confidence that Allah is simply a human construct.

And on Demons, as I have said, the term is so vague I can not have any real position. Because the term is so vague it has no real meaning. I have a very high confidence level though that demons do not exist.

I cannot say that ANYTHING that I can describe, test, discuss in any detail, point to or experience is really supernatural.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:46 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 10-23-2012 10:16 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10255
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 298 of 318 (676488)
10-23-2012 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by jar
10-22-2012 3:26 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
jar writes:

I would place Allah as well as the various iterations of the Hebrew Yahweh as Gods, something almost certain not to exist. Again, we know the source for these characters and can watch the evolution of the descriptions over time. But both Allah and Yahweh are useful creations, attempts to describe what really cannot be described.

If so, could our argument be GOD, if GOD exists versus GODS if GODS exist?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 10-22-2012 3:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by jar, posted 10-23-2012 10:19 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10255
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 299 of 318 (676489)
10-23-2012 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by jar
10-22-2012 4:04 PM


Will the real Slim Shady Please Stand Up
And on Demons, as I have said, the term is so vague I can not have any real position. Because the term is so vague it has no real meaning. I have a very high confidence level though that demons do not exist.

Revelation 1:8 writes:

I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 17:8 writes:

"The Beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the Bottomless Pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the Earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the Beast that was, and is not, and yet is"

Thus, it is conceivable that GOD (If GOD exists) IS, whereas the Beast(demons?) Is Not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by jar, posted 10-22-2012 4:04 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29821
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 300 of 318 (676490)
10-23-2012 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
10-23-2012 10:09 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
Not really. We have absolutely no way that I can see to know about anything that is supernatural and no reason to expect that anything that really is supernatural would correspond to anything natural or that we can imagine.

If we try to assign gender or entity or plural or abilities or shape or name or any other characteristic I can think of all we are doing is creating a caricature and anthropomorphism.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 10-23-2012 10:09 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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