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Author Topic:   The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 271 of 391 (816628)
08-08-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Phat
08-05-2017 2:31 PM


Re: The American Mindset
Phat writes:

OK, so Trump tries to run the country like a business, correct?


Well, that's what Republicans do, and Democrats too, for the most part. But what Trump is doing is more like playing a video game by yelling at PacMan.

Phat writes:

So if the debt ends up becoming unsustainable, won't he simply pull the plug and allow the system to crash so that we can all start over with a new system?


How would that work with a nation? If the system crashes, what does that entail? How do you "start over"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 08-05-2017 2:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 272 of 391 (816629)
08-08-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
08-05-2017 2:11 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

Much of his support base came from a hollowed out, angry middle class that was being forced into becoming a lower working class.


And the working class said, "Boo hoo."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 08-05-2017 2:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 08-09-2017 5:25 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10227
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 273 of 391 (816708)
08-09-2017 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by ringo
08-08-2017 12:35 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Thats also part of the problem. The working class has a sour grapes jealousy over the success of some of their neighbors and sabotages any efforts of one of their own to do better than them. You really need to encourage a prosperous middle class rather than keep them down.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 08-08-2017 12:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 08-10-2017 11:44 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 274 of 391 (816744)
08-10-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Phat
08-09-2017 5:25 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

The working class has a sour grapes jealousy over the success of some of their neighbors and sabotages any efforts of one of their own to do better than them.


That's a typical capitalist attitude: Bill Gates works harder than you do; all you have to do is work a million times harder and you'll be as rich as Bill Gates.

Phat writes:

You really need to encourage a prosperous middle class rather than keep them down.


What's wrong with encouraging a prosperous working class? Why make the working class something to escape from?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 08-09-2017 5:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 12:52 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10227
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 275 of 391 (816747)
08-10-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
08-10-2017 11:44 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo writes:

What's wrong with encouraging a prosperous working class? Why make the working class something to escape from?

Is it possible to do both? After World War II, with the rise of trade unions, some members actually were able to save money, raise a family, and own their own house...truly the beginning of a middle-class lifestyle. Now, we have promises from politicians to create more jobs...but these jobs are either entry level minimum wage jobs or they are highly skilled jobs that ---perhaps---Trump was trying to encourage in his recent legal immigration speech. The $30,000.00+ middle-class jobs are disappearing.

I have nothing against helping a working class get ahead, but I am afraid that the middle class is disappearing and that this is not a healthy thing.

Perhaps our evolved idea of the American Dream was unrealistic all along...I dunno.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 08-10-2017 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 08-10-2017 12:59 PM Phat has responded
 Message 278 by Taq, posted 08-10-2017 1:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 276 of 391 (816748)
08-10-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Phat
08-10-2017 12:52 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

I have nothing against helping a working class get ahead, but I am afraid that the middle class is disappearing and that this is not a healthy thing.


You haven't said why a disappearing middle class is not a healthy thing. Why is stepping on the working class "healthier" than raising them up?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 12:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 1:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10227
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 277 of 391 (816749)
08-10-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by ringo
08-10-2017 12:59 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Must it be a competitive thing? Between two classes? I never mentioned suppressing the working class. All I wondered was why the middle class had to be hollowed out.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 08-10-2017 12:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 08-10-2017 1:15 PM Phat has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 278 of 391 (816750)
08-10-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Phat
08-10-2017 12:52 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

Is it possible to do both? After World War II, with the rise of trade unions, some members actually were able to save money, raise a family, and own their own house...truly the beginning of a middle-class lifestyle. Now, we have promises from politicians to create more jobs...but these jobs are either entry level minimum wage jobs or they are highly skilled jobs that ---perhaps---Trump was trying to encourage in his recent legal immigration speech. The $30,000.00+ middle-class jobs are disappearing.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that there is a strong correlation between a strong middle class and equitable distribution of income.


https://aneconomicsense.org/...as-not-helped-the-not-so-rich

Those halcyon years where the working class and middle class did pretty good? Those were the years where income was spread around a lot more than it is now. The problem with our current trickle down economy is the gusher going upwards.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 12:52 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 279 of 391 (816751)
08-10-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Phat
08-10-2017 1:04 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

Must it be a competitive thing? Between two classes?


That's what I'm asking you. Who is "hollowing out" the middle class?

Phat writes:

I never mentioned suppressing the working class.


How else can the middle class "get ahead"?

Instead of propping up the middle class, like you want to do, why not just lift up the working class until they're almost middle class? Why not raise the middle by lifting the bottom?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 1:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 2:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10227
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 280 of 391 (816754)
08-10-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by ringo
08-10-2017 1:15 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo writes:

Instead of propping up the middle class, like you want to do, why not just lift up the working class until they're almost middle class? Why not raise the middle by lifting the bottom?

Because in the meantime, I am suffering by working harder for less while waiting for the pack to catch up. At 57 years old, I can't very well put my retirement on hold simply to lift the poor downtrodden masses up. I don't see many other options, however. Both the working class and the diminishing middle class have more in common with each other than we do with the upper class.

RUNNING IN PLACE: WHERE THE MIDDLE CLASS AND THE POOR MEET

quote:
Many of the same policies that can help the working poor climb into the middle class - investments in education, in the creation of good jobs, and in asset building, for example - can also strengthen middle-class financial security.

So I'll go with your theory that raising the working class helps me also. The issue is time. Im nearing retirement. How long must I wait?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 08-10-2017 1:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Taq, posted 08-10-2017 2:34 PM Phat has responded
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 11:48 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 281 of 391 (816755)
08-10-2017 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Phat
08-10-2017 2:26 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

Because in the meantime, I am suffering by working harder for less while waiting for the pack to catch up. At 57 years old, I can't very well put my retirement on hold simply to lift the poor downtrodden masses up. I don't see many other options, however. Both the working class and the diminishing middle class have more in common with each other than we do with the upper class.

It would appear to me that it is the top 1% that need to contribute to the working class, not the middle class. Instead of taking home massive profits, perhaps they could offer better wages and hire more people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 2:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 5:09 PM Taq has responded
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 11:53 AM Taq has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10227
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 282 of 391 (816757)
08-10-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Taq
08-10-2017 2:34 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
This is true, although we are at the opposite end of that political spectrum at the moment.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Taq, posted 08-10-2017 2:34 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Taq, posted 08-10-2017 6:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 283 of 391 (816758)
08-10-2017 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Phat
08-10-2017 5:09 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

This is true, although we are at the opposite end of that political spectrum at the moment.

That is a fact that still puzzles me. A majority of blue collar workers vote for a political party that actively works against those same blue collar workers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 5:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Porosity, posted 08-10-2017 8:20 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Porosity
Member
Posts: 156
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013


(3)
Message 284 of 391 (816765)
08-10-2017 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Taq
08-10-2017 6:14 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
That is a fact that still puzzles me. A majority of blue collar workers vote for a political party that actively works against those same blue collar workers.

I just so happens that Bernie sanders explains perfectly how poor people are persuaded to vote against their best interest.
Divide and conquer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Taq, posted 08-10-2017 6:14 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 285 of 391 (816789)
08-11-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Phat
08-10-2017 2:26 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
quote:
Many of the same policies that can help the working poor climb into the middle class - investments in education, in the creation of good jobs, and in asset building, for example - can also strengthen middle-class financial security.

I disagree with a lot of things in that statement:

  • Helping people "climb into the middle class" is a bad idea. Is everybody supposed to "climb into the middle class" and leave the working class empty?
  • Creating "good" jobs is a bad idea. Why not make the bad jobs better?
  • There's no such thing as "financial security". People making payments on a million-dollar house are as close to being on the street as people paying $500 rent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 2:26 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2017 12:07 PM ringo has responded

  
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