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Author Topic:   The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 286 of 391 (816790)
08-11-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Taq
08-10-2017 2:34 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Taq writes:

It would appear to me that it is the top 1% that need to contribute to the working class, not the middle class.


That's the attitude that got us into this situation: The other guy should pay.

It doesn't work. The 1% have more resources to avoid paying their share. And one of their main tactics is to turn the working class and the middle class against each other. They pay the politicians to "create good jobs" and at the same time to keep wages low and working conditions poor.

Personally, I would rather pay the taxes myself and let the 1% keep all they can grasp.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Taq, posted 08-10-2017 2:34 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Taq, posted 08-11-2017 1:02 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 287 of 391 (816794)
08-11-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by ringo
08-11-2017 11:48 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
There's no such thing as "financial security". People making payments on a million-dollar house are as close to being on the street as people paying $500 rent.

My salary has increased substantially but I kept my bills the same - I'm financially secure. You don't have to live at the edge of your means...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 11:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 12:10 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 288 of 391 (816796)
08-11-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by New Cat's Eye
08-11-2017 12:07 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New cat's Eye writes:

My salary has increased substantially but I kept my bills the same - I'm financially secure.


What if you got sick and couldn't work?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2017 12:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2017 12:15 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 289 of 391 (816798)
08-11-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by ringo
08-11-2017 12:10 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
What if you got sick and couldn't work?

Savings and disability. That'd last until my inheritance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 12:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 12:16 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 290 of 391 (816799)
08-11-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by New Cat's Eye
08-11-2017 12:15 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New cat's Eye writes:

Savings and disability. That'd last until my inheritance.


We don't all have an inheritance.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2017 12:15 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2017 12:20 PM ringo has responded
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 08-11-2017 3:53 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 291 of 391 (816800)
08-11-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by ringo
08-11-2017 12:16 PM


And we don't all get sick and can't work.

People can be financially secure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 12:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 12:43 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(3)
Message 292 of 391 (816803)
08-11-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by New Cat's Eye
08-11-2017 12:20 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

People can be financially secure.


But most people aren't. I'll rephrase: There is no such thing as financial security for most people.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2017 12:20 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 293 of 391 (816804)
08-11-2017 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by ringo
08-11-2017 11:53 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo writes:

That's the attitude that got us into this situation: The other guy should pay.

How does that attitude result in the largest economic inequality seen in decades?

Personally, I would rather pay the taxes myself and let the 1% keep all they can grasp.

Why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 11:53 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 1:19 PM Taq has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 294 of 391 (816807)
08-11-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Taq
08-11-2017 1:02 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Taq writes:

How does that attitude result in the largest economic inequality seen in decades?


Never mind how large the economic inequity is. There has always been economic inequity and the attitude has always been: let the people with the most money pay. Instead, why not give the money to the people who work for it so they can afford to pay?

Taq writes:

ringo writes:

Personally, I would rather pay the taxes myself and let the 1% keep all they can grasp.


Why?

Because I'm a responsible citizen. I'll gladly pay for the services I use - and I could pay more if I was paid fairly for what I contribute. Why would I want to be beholden to some rich goober?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Taq, posted 08-11-2017 1:02 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Taq, posted 08-11-2017 3:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 295 of 391 (816817)
08-11-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by ringo
08-11-2017 1:19 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo writes:

Never mind how large the economic inequity is. There has always been economic inequity and the attitude has always been: let the people with the most money pay. Instead, why not give the money to the people who work for it so they can afford to pay?

That doesn't really address the question I was asking. Previously, you said:

"That's the attitude that got us into this situation: The other guy should pay."

How does pushing for more economic equality result in more inequity?

If we pursue peace with a foreign country, will that attitude cause war? If we have the attitude that we should feed hungry people, would more people go hungry?

There has always been economic inequity and the attitude has always been: let the people with the most money pay. Instead, why not give the money to the people who work for it so they can afford to pay?

There used to be a lot less inequality, and there was a thriving middle and working class during those years.

Why not return to a time with strong unions that aren't continually busted by the mega-rich backed by their conservative Republican lackey's? Why not raise the minimum wage so that people can actually live off of it? Why not increase subsidies for health care so that the working class isn't pouring such a large percentage of their income into health care?

According to you, pushing for these things will only make economically inequality worse. Why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 1:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 08-12-2017 11:41 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10229
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 296 of 391 (816822)
08-11-2017 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by ringo
08-11-2017 12:16 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
CatSci quite likely has an inheritance because his parents were part of the middle class that was able to save and invest so as to leave something for their children...provided they didnt need it for their own retirement/health care. What I'm complaining about is that you could care less about a middle class similar to how my parents were but would rather pay everyone below middle class enough to get off government assistance---not realizing that they still wont be able to leave anything to their heirs. What kind of American Dream is that???

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 12:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Riggamortis, posted 08-11-2017 10:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 08-12-2017 11:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


(2)
Message 297 of 391 (816841)
08-11-2017 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
08-11-2017 3:53 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Here's a post I made on Facebook not long after my son was born.

Rigga writes:

I used to think that the ultimate purpose in life was to acquire as much wealth as possible so that I could leave it to my children thus giving them an advantage in life and given the system we live under, it's a fairly reasonable goal.

The more I learn about the system though, the more I realise how wasteful and inhumane it is and I now see the ultimate purpose in life as being a part of the change that needs to occur to move away from a system that deifies money and puts profit at the top of the priority list.

I don't want our future generations to inherit a world/system where a child dies from starvation every 5 seconds just because there is no profit to be made in feeding them.

Are we really so selfish that we will continue to ignore the injustice in the world because we have the best of it? I hope not..

After much consideration I don't believe there needs to be any losers during the process of providing a decent living standard for everyone. The inequality is fundamentally built in and should we remove the systemic inequality to the extent possible then everyone would ultimately benefit. Rather than profiting from a predatory financial system the wealthy would profit from all the increased investment required to build the future and supply the demand created by having more people with more money to spend.

Progressive populism is the answer in my opinion.

NotMe writes:

In my view, the Sanders option remains the only principled and winning strategy in the era of Trump. To those who are now mobilizing under the banner of resistance, I suggest the counter-project of course correction. Whereas the first suggests a doubling down on progressive-neoliberalisms definition of us (progressives) versus them (Trumps deplorable supporters), the second means redrawing the political mapby forging common cause among all whom his administration is set to betray: not just the immigrants, feminists, and people of color who voted against him, but also the rust-belt and Southern working-class strata who voted for him. Contra Brenner, the point is not to dissolve identity politics into class politics. It is to clearly identify the shared roots of class and status injustices in financialized capitalism, and to build alliances among those who must join together to fight against both of them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 08-11-2017 3:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 298 of 391 (816868)
08-12-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Taq
08-11-2017 3:21 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Taq writes:

How does pushing for more economic equality result in more inequity?


But you're not pushing for more economic equality. Your pushing, it seems, a version of trickle-down economics where you inject money at the middle instead of at the top. You seem to be touting the status quo, which has escape from the working class as the only option for the working class.

Taq writes:

Why not raise the minimum wage so that people can actually live off of it? Why not increase subsidies for health care so that the working class isn't pouring such a large percentage of their income into health care?


That's what I'm saying.

Taq writes:

According to you, pushing for these things will only make economically inequality worse. Why?


I'm saying that propping up the middle class makes the working class worse off - because those things are not being done for the working class.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Taq, posted 08-11-2017 3:21 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 08-14-2017 3:19 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 299 of 391 (816869)
08-12-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
08-11-2017 3:53 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

What I'm complaining about is that you could care less about a middle class similar to how my parents were but would rather pay everyone below middle class enough to get off government assistance---not realizing that they still wont be able to leave anything to their heirs.


That's true. I couldn't care less if anybody can leave anything to their heirs. I'd rather leave their heirs a world in which they can make their own way.

Phat writes:

What kind of American Dream is that???


A sustainable one.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 08-11-2017 3:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-13-2017 11:34 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 300 of 391 (816939)
08-13-2017 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by ringo
08-12-2017 11:44 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
I couldn't care less if anybody can leave anything to their heirs. I'd rather leave their heirs a world in which they can make their own way.

And if their own way is the ability to leave something to their heirs?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 08-12-2017 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by ringo, posted 08-14-2017 12:18 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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